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That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US 
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 Can a Seedling get too much light? 
#223803 - 05/07/09 11:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hi all, I recently acquired a 90W LED grow light...and a homebox S growtent... I have a seedling that is about a week old...just barely has its seedling leaves unfolding.
So i put this little seedling in my growtent and put it about 12 inches away from the light...and it looked good last night...
While i was asleep there was about a 5 hour dark period...and then the light turned on again. When i got up this morning the seedling was drooping badly. I took it out of the growtent...sprinkled a little water over the soil and left it under a low wattage Florescent light. Since then it has perked up somewhat. I haven't seen much on here about seedlings getting too much light...and im wondering if the seedling is just not ready for that kind of bright light yet...or is it something else that is causing this droopiness?
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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 Audz
Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 184
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#223823 - 05/07/09 11:46 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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A little bit of drooping is natural at the end of a dark cycle, they should start to climb back towards the light once it comes back on. But I can't imagine 90w of LED light would be enough to light-shock a seedling.
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Audz]
#223837 - 05/07/09 12:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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cool man thanks 
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#224110 - 05/07/09 10:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Im thinking there is no such thing as "to much light" there is such a thing as to much heat....but I have never heard of the term "light shocking" before. Pictures would really help so I can see how droopy it actually is. Also what type of soil are you using and stuff like that will help out too. You could be over watering if its drooping.
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dieselkush
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 78
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#224111 - 05/07/09 10:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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interesting, ive ben leaving my 300wcfl and 2 150wcfls on for my two seedling I have going. so far the light doesnt seem to bother them but am unsure when they get a bit bigger. would it be ok to run them on a nonstop light cycle? until they get older I mean. Ive got a timer but its a cheapo, it has 7 days a week on it but every time i set it the timer doesnt shut off when it should and shuts off when u dont want it to. so if I can have the light on 24/7 for a few weeks until I get a new one it would be groovy...
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: dieselkush]
#224113 - 05/07/09 11:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Most people run 24/0 in the vegitative state and then 12/12 when in flowering..... again light will not hurt your plants, its over watering and heat that will fuck with your plants. if you click Here you will see my grow where I have my plants on a 24/0 cycle until flowering.
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224115 - 05/07/09 11:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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plus with those CFL's you can get pretty close to your plant without burning them....just put your hand close to the plant and when you stop feeling heat they are at the right level.
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dieselkush
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 78
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224117 - 05/07/09 11:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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nice grow, I skimmed through the first page or so. my attention span is shot right now. my light and temps should be ok for now, I had some a while back and had 2 300w, 4 150w, and 2 100wcfls in a cab. I had one hell of a time with temps and killed the pour gals. ive came to the conclusion what I have now(1 300w, 2 150w) should be good until they get bigger, the temps are perfect with just these bulbs. from what your saying the seedlings are far enough away from the lights. my only problem is the soil seems to dry out fast, there in a small container so im having to give the soil a good soak about 3 times maybe 4 times a day on a hot day. is this normal? im afraid they will dry out and die if I dont, but then again im skurred that im over watering them. I did put a layer of vermiculite in the middle of the dish under the top soil to help obsorbe moisture and water..
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: dieselkush]
#224119 - 05/07/09 11:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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A good way to check to see if the soil needs watering is to put your finger down about an inch and see if its dry...if your finger comes out dry you need to water. Usually you will only have to water once or twice a week. But since your pots are small you might need to water more often.....all I know is that I had my seedlings in a pellet for a while and they didnt even need to be watered every day. And those are pretty small. What are you using?
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dieselkush
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 78
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224124 - 05/07/09 11:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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lol, you know those loyed's barbacue beef containers. I took one and poked holes in the bottom and set that on top of another one. so its about 3-4"? deep and 5-6"? wide. i might be wrong on the dimensions...
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: dieselkush]
#224125 - 05/07/09 11:34 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well lol if its dry its dry, although you might want to move it to something bigger....if you dont want to water all the time.
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dieselkush
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 78
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224128 - 05/07/09 11:46 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think im going to have to,maybe to cut down on watering. course Im out of a job right now so its not like I need to save time with the gals. I think you awsnered my questions with your triptonic wisdom. one last question, Ive seen pics of people covering the top of the pots with tinfoil.leaving a gap for the stem. this is for older plants, but is this to keep in moisture in small heated areas,maybe to to reflect light also? or is this nonesense? thanks a bunch..
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: dieselkush]
#224130 - 05/07/09 11:52 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Haha never seen that one, I know that people "enclose" their plant kinda with tinfoil so that the light gets to all the leaves. But I'm not sure if that actually helps or not. I'm sure if you post something someone will answer that one for you. Good luck to you sir, and feel free to ask more questions anytime.
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dieselkush
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 78
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224138 - 05/08/09 12:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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neeto, thanks abunch triptonic. Im sure ill be posting more questions along the way. I didnt mean to highjack this guys thread..anyway. enjoy the rest of your night. peace.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: dieselkush]
#224291 - 05/08/09 02:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Okay well a seedling can have too much light... If you start a seedling with only 30 W of light. Which is plenty enough to get a couple seedlings going until they are ready for a bigger light source. The problem is when you switch a plant from a low wattage light source to a larger one. (HPS or the Sun). You have to break them in to the more intense light source little by little. If you put it right into the new light, it may not be "hardened" yet and could easily burn.
It's kinda like the geek that sits inside all day and doesnt see much sunlight, they are pale and when exposed to too much sunlight, will burn easily! Try to relate that your seedling. I have one seedling under 30w CFL and its getting big really fast, I put it in the sun for hours a day to get it ready for the full day of sun it will soon receive...
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Inverted]
#224292 - 05/08/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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True, but if you start your seedling out with that much light, it will be used to it....thats what the first guy was asking I believe, I dont think hes trying to move it up to a new light. But maybe the dark period has something to do with it. (although I doubt it)
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224295 - 05/08/09 02:27 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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No you are right, I was just giving an example of where it could be too much light. If you start your seedling under high wattages, it will always be used to that. I'm assuming the drooping is due to overwatering, but cannot be sure until pictures show due justice.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Inverted]
#224296 - 05/08/09 02:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Agreed PICS OR WE CANT HELP lol
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224430 - 05/08/09 09:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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well i am currently away from my seedling...but if its not dead and still drooping then I will post a picture...for right now i believe it may be overwatering...Thanks so much for the advice and info 
agmotes165
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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ethnoguy
E to the G
Registered: 04/21/08
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#224434 - 05/08/09 09:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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If its drooping chances are it over watering. High light exposure causes burn. A 90W LED isn't going to do that unless you have it touching the plant basically.
EG
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: ethnoguy]
#224449 - 05/08/09 10:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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well i guess its a good thing that i wont be there for a few days...I tend to worry over my babies too much...my kids will probly be fat if i ever have any...So it sounds like i need to set it up like im watering a pereskiopsis during peak growth...which for me is once or twice a week...or whenever the soil gets dry...
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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ethnoguy
E to the G
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#224451 - 05/08/09 10:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Feel down in the soil with your finger. If its dry an inch down- water. Thats what I don. Never any over/under water probs for me. I stressed like hell over my first indoor grow. You'll get over it. I did the same thing.
EG
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#224452 - 05/08/09 10:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ya dude just wait till the soil dries up a little more and then water...better to be a little underwatered than over watered.
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224453 - 05/08/09 10:25 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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lol EG I like how your just repeating stuff I say......
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ethnoguy
E to the G
Registered: 04/21/08
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224456 - 05/08/09 10:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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 . I missed it. I still don't see it. But I've been playing with this:
If it looks good, I think I'll use it as my avatar. Yeah, IDK.
EG
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224458 - 05/08/09 10:35 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
triptonic said:
A good way to check to see if the soil needs watering is to put your finger down about an inch and see if its dry...if your finger comes out dry you need to water. Usually you will only have to water once or twice a week. But since your pots are small you might need to water more often.....all I know is that I had my seedlings in a pellet for a while and they didnt even need to be watered every day. And those are pretty small. What are you using?
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ethnoguy
E to the G
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Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224459 - 05/08/09 10:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I like how I said what you said, but with fewer words
EG
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: ethnoguy]
#224461 - 05/08/09 10:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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true dat...im wordy
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ethnoguy
E to the G
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 429
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#224462 - 05/08/09 10:40 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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No worse than me. I can over explain thing like you wouldn't believe. I guess that does work as an avatar. The tax stamp kinda looked like a badge 
Man, this thread is jacked
EG
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: ethnoguy]
#224475 - 05/08/09 11:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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its fine i dont care i got the info i needed...Thanks again guys...EG i like the avatar...very nice...
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: ethnoguy]
#225228 - 05/11/09 03:34 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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well i let it dry out under my LED light for 3 days...until the soil was dry about one inch down...and it is still looking like shit...I will get some good pics and a detail of sprouting conditions so i can figure out what the hell im doing wrong 
will update in a little while
agmotes165
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Johnny420
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 289
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#225235 - 05/11/09 04:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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This might sound stupid and by all means people contest it, but it could be a nutes thing. How old are these plants?
I know you get other tell tale signs of nute problems, but I've seen plants droop and look generally lifeless. Watering never helped and then the signed of defficiency started to show.
After given a good whack of nutes they've perked right up and leaves become more rigid and growth exploded.
I'm by all means no expert though so please look out for other signs of a defficiency though before getting nute happy.
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  WE HIT THE TREES TILL WE LOOK VIETNAMESE
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Johnny420]
#225238 - 05/11/09 04:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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From the front
From the back
and from the side
as you can see...there is something that looks like a dirt clod stuck to one of the cotyledons...this is actually attached...I think it may be something left over from the seed case...you can see in the side picture that the plumule with the first true leaves is beginning to show itself...the leaning bend in the stem is from the initial drooping...and then i guess the upturn back towards light...on the leaf without the attached gunk...you may be able to see a slight yellowing around the edge of the cotyledons
Conditions
Temperature: 83oF max during day, 75oF min at night
Soil: Miracle Grow brand seed starting mixture...consists mostly of sphagnum moss and perlite...very fluffy but afraid there arent enough nutrients...planning to transplant into large pot of fox farm soil
Light: 20 hours on, 4 hours off, 90W LED @ 1foot from seedling...temperature read from this point (see above) LED ratio Red:Blue:Orange 7:1:1
Humidity: less than 35% RH at all times...can get to 20% RH after running fan...
Feeding Schedule: none at this point
I hope this provides enough info for a good diagnosis...i do have some fertilizer on hand if its an emergency but i will wait for a couple of suggestions before i risk burning my brand new seedling...
Thanks in advance
agmotes165
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Johnny420
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 289
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#225241 - 05/11/09 04:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh sorry... i didnt realise we were still in the first couple of days. I'm not 100% on what's classed as a seedling and when Veg kicks in.
please ignore what i said... nute defficiency is definitely not the problem at this stage.
I'd just keep as you are with the watering when the soild is dry.
I'd say you can count out the light. If a seedling under a 400W HPS in tepms like yours can survive then your LED's should't pose too much problem.
It could be heat. Your temp could do with coming down a bit to around 77/78F, but 83 is survivable. Just keep an eye on that later in the cycle.
Humidity is a bit low, but again if you can keep an eye on it, it should be fine. Nothing a regular spraying wouldn't fix.
IME after the first couple of weeks are when the problems with the above show.
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WE HIT THE TREES TILL WE LOOK VIETNAMESE
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Johnny420
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 289
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Johnny420]
#225242 - 05/11/09 04:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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oh and the cotyledons tend to yellow up anyway so i wouldn't worry about them. True leaves are the ones to keep an eye on.
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WE HIT THE TREES TILL WE LOOK VIETNAMESE
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Johnny420]
#225428 - 05/11/09 10:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey man, lookin at your little guys (or hopefully girls) they look to be fine to me. Your soil still looks a little wet although I didn't see whether or not you watered before you took those pics...even though they look a tad yellow its nothing to worry about. My bet is that they will start turning green the bigger they get. But how hot is your led? Sorry I don't know to much about led's but I'm guessing that it isn't very hot. And if it isn't hot you can get really close to your plant with it. That will help reduce stretching in the long run. If you can take a picture of the very top of the seedling so I can see just how "yellow" it really is, that will give me a better idea on what the problem is (if any). But I certainly wouldn't worry to much at this point if its only 3 days old.... good job so far man.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#225687 - 05/12/09 07:03 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Man you have got to take it easy and get some patience. That thing is barely even a seedling yet, you gotta give mother nature a chance to do her thing! It takes a while for a plant to get started, but then it increases at an exponential rate. Although it is under-developed for its age, it looks perfectly healthy. Your soil looks soaked, I would really let it dry out, the cup/pot its in should be very light compared to what it felt like when it was freshly watered (heavy). I would stick to the flourescent light until your child grows a little bigger and is well into vegetating. 3 weeks or so, about when you need to give it the first dose of nutrients. I would recommend keeping it a little warm right now as that seems to speed up the first stages of growth considerably. I would keep it around 75-80F Until it gets a few nodes on it at least.
Just chill out though seriously, it takes time, and quite a bit of it at that. Its like watching a child, you won't notice the growth too much if you are checking on the poor thing every 3 hours... Not to mention too much care kills a plant more often than neglect... At least in my personal experiences throughout the years.
Just keep her an inch or two from your Flouro and don't water it for at least 3-4 days, and keep it warm and you'll see some results.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Inverted]
#230343 - 05/22/09 10:59 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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well its been 11 days since my last post...i do have updates...
I ended up transplanting to a soil mix that i came up with:
For a 5 gallon batch of dry soil:
1.75 gallons Sphagnum Peat Moss
1.75 gallons Perlite
.75 gallons of 50/50 Worm Castings/Black Kow
5 Tbsp Blood Meal
10 Tbsp Bone Meal
now as i put this into my pot i added 2 scoops of the long lasting water polymers to the bottom 3/4 of the soil...and then added regular soil to the top 1/4.
i watered this thoroughly and left it for a while about 4 inches under my LED lights...and it is currently 2 inches tall, 3 inches wide...and is working on putting out it's 3rd or 4th internode. The internode spacing is about 1/8th of an inch...It seems as though the water crystals work.
sorry about the quality my girlfriend stole my camera for the week...and she's on the other end of the country...
I will post new pictures in approximately 2 weeks
peace
agmotes165
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Integra21
Up and coming Farmer
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: ethnoguy]
#230376 - 05/22/09 11:34 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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If it is the 90W UFO, and the specs are correct, its supposed to be the equivilant of a mid sized hps light, and could be capable of stressing seedlings, but not likely, unless the leaves showed obvious signs of light burn. You can try to set it up again, bit try moving the light 6-12 inches further away from the plant, where even if the light was doing it, the distance should remedy the problem.
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ethnoguy
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Integra21]
#230685 - 05/22/09 10:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm surprised its so squat. Looks good. I really want to see a LED grow from beginning to end.
EG
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: ethnoguy]
#230692 - 05/22/09 11:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ha ha dude what did I tell you your plant looks great!
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: ethnoguy]
#230813 - 05/23/09 07:30 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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its a 90W rectangular grow light from growlLED. So far its working out nicely...I actually managed to burn some pereskiopsis cuttings in my grow tent before i started this project. I will keep a log of pictures as it progresses and probably start a grow log...keep in mind that i have no idea whether this is name brand genetics or just mid-grade bagseed...looks like an indica of some sort...which would explain the squat growth habit...
I feel as though LED grow lights work pretty well. Apparently a 90W system is good for somewhere around 10-15 sq ft of grow area...so i may try a SOG with some name-brand genetics in the fall.
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#236827 - 06/06/09 01:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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well, as promised, this is my two week update...These pictures were taken after 2 weeks of nothing but light...24/0 with no water or nutrient supplementation, but i do have bone meal and blood meal and worm castings mixed into the soil...it was actually touching the light when i first checked on it...and so the top leaves are a little scorched...i decided to add some more light to the tent area...so i installed 2 CFL's, 60W a piece, 300w equivilent light output, or 3900 lumens per light...both in the 2700K color temp. The ambient temp inside the tent is 80F...and i am using Fox Farm's Big Bloom with ample watering...I did noticed some discoloration of the leaves...and was wondering what might be causing this? Any advice would be awesome
this thing is incredibly short and busy...its only 6 inches tall, is working on its 10th node currently...and its main stem is over a half inch thick...and it already smells pretty pungent
here are some of the worst examples of the leaf discoloration, I feel like its due to lack of water, but i want to make sure its not a probly with nutes...or too much light...I lowered the plant away from the light enough for a 2x to 2.5x increase in overall height during the flowering period.
And for the curious people:
this is what the plant looks like under both white light and the Red/blue LED's, its my favorite pic
updates in another 2 weeks...feel free to offer suggestions
peace
agmotes165
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Triptonic
Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 15,581
Loc:
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Data]
#236833 - 06/06/09 01:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Looks like some nitrogen def. in the leaves if I'm not mistaken....But yeah definatly back the lights off a little cuz of the burning on the top.
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ethnoguy
E to the G
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 429
Loc: your momma's house
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: Triptonic]
#237036 - 06/06/09 07:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, its burnt.
EG
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,035
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Can a Seedling get too much light? [Re: ethnoguy]
#241596 - 06/21/09 07:31 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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so i have a growlog started up...with new pics...figured it would be better than clogging up the cultivation forum
http://www.growery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/238422
and here is a taste of what has happened in the past 2 weeks
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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