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 DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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 What does this look like to you guys? 
#381730 - 03/11/10 05:55 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Just wondering if you guys could help me figure this one out...
I've can't tell if I've got toxic levels of something or deficient...
This girl has been fed about once a week, with 1/4 and 1/8th strength flowering nutes (tiger bloom), a little superthrive and big bloom. Everything always buffered to 6.5.
Flushed two days ago, and it helped a little, but it's still progressing.
She's day 28 into flower.
from the bottom up:
Thanks for any help guys.
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Crusty Ass Bastard
Pheno Hunting
Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 786
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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 Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: DudeTron]
#382066 - 03/11/10 04:57 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Looks like a classic case of N deficiency. When you discontinue grow ferts (N specifically) so early in flowering, fan leaves yellow and die at a fast rate from the bottom up. You should be adding at least some N for the first 4+ weeks of flowering with most strains. Personally I keep adding N past week 8 although in very small amounts.
I'd recommend giving them a 50/50 dose of grow/bloom next feeding and then back to bloom only until harvest. It will keep your fan leaves alive and happy and making energy for your buds.
Red stems on dying fans are another indicator of N def.
Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (03/11/10 05:00 PM)
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dutc2006
Grow or Die
Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 199
Last seen: 9 years, 26 days
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I would avoid using the superthrive as a continual additive. Only add it when your plant is really sick or transplanted and needs a boost. Also, I have heard it can have adverse effects on taste when used in flower, but I cannot validate that. I do know it stinks like shit.
I think 206 is right that it needs more N, but I would flush again since you said that helped, but that the problem was still worsening. That clawing on the upper fans and the wrinkled burn look of those lower fans looks like toxic salts buildup or it could be the result of the hormones in Superthrive, if it does actually have hormones. Whenever I have a N deficiency, my leaves usually just get pale and limp, they don't get gnarled like that. Maybe you didn't flush quite enough the first time...
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: dutc2006]
#382374 - 03/12/10 05:23 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks guys... N actually never occured to me, I just expect once I flip the lights I'm done with N which is silly... I think that's a really good call. I'll probably flush again and replace with light strength grow and bloom.
I've always found that when my soil runs out of its inherent goodies, that I'm always in trouble and can never figure it out.... Maybe it's cause they always run out in flower and I neglect the N so hard! 
Yeah I could probably chill on the superthrive a bit too... I hadn't thought of any bad things it could do yet, but not being able to flush it would be enough for me to tone it down. I currently use 1 drop per gal in everything I do, but might just stick to transplants etc, like you mentioned Dutc.
And finally the problem on the upper leaves had been apparent for about a week and a half, and seems to be correcting itself for whatever reason...
Thanks guys, I've got a plan now which is the greatest part about being able to ask dudes for help around here. I'm not just going to be experimenting with my girls ya know?
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dutc2006
Grow or Die
Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 199
Last seen: 9 years, 26 days
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: DudeTron]
#382626 - 03/12/10 05:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yea you bring up a good point about the soil too. Usually by the time I get to flower, my soil area shrinks up as the roots grow through them. For whatever it is worth, I always fill in those gaps if the soil has pulled away from the sides of the pot, and cover up any roots that may have grown through the surface with a couple inches of fresh Ocean Forest. I figure this adds some more healthy mychorrhizae and the other beneficial micro-organisms in Ocean Forest. I don't know if there is any logic in it, but I do it, and it seems to help. I was wondering what other peoples thoughts on this were.
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: dutc2006]
#382709 - 03/12/10 07:23 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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For some reason during this grow I did manage to get some roots poking through the surface... I think it's cause I used jiffy pellets maybe?
Anyway, I added an inch or so to these plants like you mentioned... I agree it feels good like you're giving them a fresh dose of whatever goodies the ocean forest has to offer... Also it got me thinking about dry material top feeding like some people do, watering through a layer of nutes.. I think it's mostly an organic approach though, which is also starting to sound like a good option.
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Buddy Guy
Gone Rogue
Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Unknown
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: DudeTron]
#382812 - 03/12/10 10:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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The plant with all the close ups look more like a magnesium deficiency.
I would say magnesium deficiency due to the following reasons: Magnesium deficiencies are most common in marijuana grown indoors. The lower and middle leaves are developing yellowy patchy darkness and the veins are staying green and the rusty brown spots on the leaf margins. This plant is 28 days into flower. Magnesium deficiency symptoms first appear around the the time the plant reaches 6 weeks old. First signs of deficiency are. Interveinal yellowing and brown spots show up on older and middle aged leaves and leaves begin to curl upwards. All these symptoms progress as the deficiency progresses. You can treat this by watering with 2 teaspoons of epsom salt per gallon of water. If this is the sollution. Your plants will begin to turn green from the top to the bottom. Contine to water with epsom salt until the deficiency disappears. Use as a foliar spray for a fst cure. The addition of epsom salt is not necessary your nutrients have available magnesium.
The plant in the picture that is a picture of a full plant looks like a early nitrogen deficiency. Droopy yellow leaves. Veins are still green. You can treat this by fertilizing with nitrogen or a more complete N-P-K fertilizer.
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: Buddy Guy]
#382831 - 03/12/10 11:22 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Those pictures are all of the same plant...
Thanks for the magnesium vote... I was thinking along the same lines... It seems like my grows so far have all had general Fe, K, magnesium problems. From what I understand these nutes are interrelated. I've tried to fix a similar problem on my other plant with epsom salts and it didn't do anything so I was really open to the N def idea.
At any rate, I flushed and topped off with a low dose of my grow nutes (FF grow big) which does contain Fe and magnesium anyway... I'm a little apprehensive about foliar feeding in general and especially at this stage of bud, but if it gets too much worse (which it still is as of 12 hours from the flush and feed) I'll have to consider it.
So any general ideas as to how I keep going wrong at this stage of the game? All my water is PH balanced, I feed rather lightly with high quality nutes, use fresh quality soil, with a pot-up right before flipping to 12/12... How do these problems happen? Admittedly I could probably flush more often and probably should every 3-4 weeks regardless how my plants look... but still, any words of wisdom?
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Crusty Ass Bastard
Pheno Hunting
Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 786
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: Buddy Guy]
#383998 - 03/15/10 12:09 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure FF adds dolomite lime to OF, so although mg might be part of the problem (like buddy said) it might not be a deficiency. Its no surprise most people notice mg problems around week 4 of flower, because they're usually stopping N entirely and loading P/K and P/K toxicity will lock out mg and show many of the same symptoms as mg def.
Getting a soil test kit might be your best bet here. They are cheap and you will immediately know if mg is a problem.
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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That's a good idea about the test kit... I have seen them around the hardware stores for cheap... They always look a little cheap though too.
Another thing is she's only had about 3 feedings since 12/12, and never more than 1/4 strength... Is it at all possible she's starving for P-K?
I dunno man... She is still getting worse though. I flushed again yesterday and used a little cal-mag, and after the full day cycle I still am not seeing her problem slow down... I was actually thinking it might be time for some real diagnostic equipment... PH, TDS, EC, whatever cause after this I'm really stumped man.
Gotta thank you guys for stickin around and helpin out... I'll get some more pics soon too I'm thinkin.
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Buddy Guy
Gone Rogue
Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Unknown
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: DudeTron]
#384540 - 03/16/10 09:02 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Then you have a potassium toxicity.
Potassium toxicity is not common and is complicated to diagnose because it is mixed with the deficiencies symptoms of other nutrients. Too much potassium impairs than slows the roots ability to absorb magnesium(this is what your plant is showing), manganese, and some times zinc and iron(which you have had problems with in all your grows). Look for signs of potassium toxicity when symptoms of magnesium, manganese, zinc, and iron deficiencies.
Treat toxicity by flushing the grow medium of affected plants with a very mild and complete fertilizer. Less than quarter strength. Like eight and sixteen strength fertilizers.
Severe problems will require that more water be flushed through the grow medium.
Flush with a MINIMUM of three times the volume of water for the volume of grow medium.
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pha3r0
Stranger
Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 615
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: Buddy Guy] 1
#384542 - 03/16/10 09:17 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I know everyone has already said N deficiency but I want to point something out and ask a question. You say it's getting tiger bloom and big bloom? tiger is 2-8-4, big bloom is .01-.3-.7. If that is all you have been giving it I am going to say unequivocally you have a N deficiency.
Look at the rest of the plant, thin stems very very light coloration. No reddish, purplish or even rust spots or stems? Only thing it could be is N deficiency if that's the case.
You could have some other problems also but I bet they are more or less caused by the N thing, if you in fact have not given it a source of N other then the dirt.
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"The proverb warns that, "You should not bite the hand that feeds you." But maybe you should, if it prevents you from feeding yourself."
- Thomas Szasz
"if you arent good with electricity dont go touching it...ive electrocuted myself twice...its no fun"
- mhbound
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 Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: pha3r0]
#384560 - 03/16/10 09:58 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Nitrogen deficiency is characterized by a uniform yellowing of the lower leaves. The pictures show more of a rust colored spotting, along with large necrotic patches.
I have to agree with Buddy on this one.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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pha3r0
Stranger
Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 615
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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I had figured the necrotic spots were due to long term deficiency. to me the spots look more tan then rust also, not arguing though I just want to get as much info out of dudes problem as I can.
So my point is those spots to you are rust color not just dead plant color? I also want to know if you have any idea how it got a potassium overdose as it seems he has been giving it very little nutrients, is superthrive heavy on it or you think it is just a build up over time?
I always hit the diagnosis forum when I have extra time it is the best place for me to learn.
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"The proverb warns that, "You should not bite the hand that feeds you." But maybe you should, if it prevents you from feeding yourself."
- Thomas Szasz
"if you arent good with electricity dont go touching it...ive electrocuted myself twice...its no fun"
- mhbound
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pha3r0
Stranger
Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 615
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: pha3r0]
#384578 - 03/16/10 10:29 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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for reference this to me is what I had in mind of being 'rust'
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"The proverb warns that, "You should not bite the hand that feeds you." But maybe you should, if it prevents you from feeding yourself."
- Thomas Szasz
"if you arent good with electricity dont go touching it...ive electrocuted myself twice...its no fun"
- mhbound
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: DudeTron]
#384799 - 03/16/10 06:37 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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How big are your containers and how much water are you flushing with??
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Okay.. so, since I've got your guys attention and you're helpin me so much, here's exactly what she's been fed since flower...
Flipped 12/12 on 2/15
Grow Big Tiger bloom Big bloom
2/28 0 1/2 tsp 1 tbl
3/4 0 1/4 tsp 1 tbl
3/9 0 1/4 tsp 1 tbl Flushed
3/12 1/4 tsp 0 0 Flushed, added Molasses
3/14 0 1/8 tsp 0 Flushed, also 1/2 tsp Cal-mag (1/2 strength)
There may have been a feeding prior to 2/28....
Okay so I know I'm gonna get a little shit for this, but she's in a 1 gallon pot... Hence the frequent feedings, every other watering. When I flush, I usually run 2 gallons of ph balanced water through it, followed by 1 gallon of the light nutrient mix....
Here's something fucking insane I noticed though while I was looking through my notes. I keep track of how many drops of PH buffer juice I use for whatever reason... And while thinking about it, I remember noticing on my label that my PH buffers read 0-0-9.... I've brought this up before and nobody knew what I was talking about and had never heard of such a thing, but I'm starting to wonder if this could be part of my K problem.
 Is this shit the culprit after all? Note however that the recommended 1/2 tsp would easily swing the PH like 6 points... I only use 4-12 drops at a time per gallon... And the censor is just cause this stuff is bottled a little TOO locally for advertisement....
Thanks again dudes... I'm about to hit the sack cause I just worked a fuckin 13 hour day... (at least I'm working eh?)
Edited by DudeTron (03/17/10 08:26 PM)
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: DudeTron]
#385061 - 03/16/10 09:13 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I doubt that's causing it. If it's only a few drops per gallon like you said it should have very little effect. The leaves that have been affected are not going to look any better. As long as it doesn't look like your progressing you should be fine.
I would flush way more than 2 gallons through your medium. Usually the recommended flush is a minimum 3x the size of your container. You can go with even up to 5 gallons as long as you have a soil that drains well.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Okay.. so I guess I'm going to try a 5 gallon flush. My previous flushes were 3 gal however...
So what would be a good 'light, complete nutrient mix' to flush with? Just the tiger bloom and big bloom maybe?
Would it be worth it for me to go get some clearex or something at this point? Actually, damn I think I might get some anyway now that it popped into my head.
By the way, looking at my feeding schedule again, it really does seem a little excessive... Since I'm using too small of a pot for this plant and watering every 2 days, does that mean I should probably chill a little on the "every other watering" rule and only feed every 3rd watering or more?
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: What does this look like to you guys? [Re: DudeTron]
#385625 - 03/17/10 08:44 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Get the Clearex. It's worth it.
As for the feeding I would say every 3 days would be a good idea.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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