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I am looking in to getting some LED panels from China. They will manufacture to my specs, as far as voltage, wavelength/ratio, and wattage. What would be the perfect light? I've been lurking around here for a while, and done a couple grows with a homemade 150W HPS and DWC in 3 gal buckets. I think HPS make them stretch too much in veg, and heat is always an issue. All the threads I've read, people are very negative towards LED's except for the person using it. What are issues we have with lights now? Any light sources. What is better with some lights vs others? Here's my list so far.
MH HID- Requires Ballast High light output for power consumption Available in various wattage High heat output - from ballast and bulb Relatively wide blue spectrum best suited for vegetative growth only Moderate price Moderate lifespan on bulb - long life on ballast
HPS HID - requires ballast High light output for power consumption Available in various wattage High heat output- from ballast and bulb Relatively wide red spectrum- best suited for flowering only Moderate price Moderate lifespan on bulb - long life on ballast
Fluorescent requires ballst - often built in to fixture or CFL bulb - often not an added expense Low light output- requires more bulbs Low power consumption Available in various wattage Available in various styles Lower heat than HID- most from ballast Available in "Warm" or "Cool" spectrum - need to change bulbs between growth stages. Low price Shorter lifespan on bulb - moderate ballast life - will need to replace bulbs and fixtures more often
LED Requires circuitry to drive LEDs- built in to fixture low light output- LED grow lights are arrays of many LEDs to get high output Very low power consumption arrays available in different wattages and styles Spectrum specific- can be manufactured to produce exactly the wavelengths needed for plant growth- Reds, blues, violets, oranges, reds, yellows, whites, even UV and IR (IR would not be beneficial IMHO) High price Very long life on LEDs - long life on driver cicuitry if properly cooled - usually fans are built in to fixture to cool electronics
HID's are good for High light output, but for best scenario, you need MH and HPS, which requires 2 ballasts, or a switchable one, and 2 bulbs. They also put out a LOT of heat from ballast and bulbs. To get full spectrum, both would need to be used in conjunction.
Fluorescents are good for low cost, low output light for cuttings and clones, cooler - light can be closer to plants, low cost - have to be replaced more often. Bulb spectrums can be changed between growth stages - fixtures can support any spectrum - can mix spectrums in same fixture. (if using multi-tube fixture)
LEDs put out a lot of light, and have very low power consumption. Custom spectrums- any mixture of any wavelength, can be targeted for veg or flower, or both mixed, can target spectrum to a particular type plant if required. Could probably be manufactures to have switchable spectrum- I will check on this. They also run very cool -can place extremely close to plant. LEDs have an extremely long lifespan, individual LEDs are inexpensive - arrays can be repaired if individual LEDs burn out- could possibly be built so that they are "easily" replaced by pulling the bad one and pluggin a new one in- will check on this.
Basically, what would an LED have to do to overcome the issues? Is the up-front cost the major problem? What would be the ideal spectrum for our purposes?
I am currently without employment, and I really don't want to go back to work for the "man" or his idea of what our society should be like, so I'm trying to get my own little business started. I don't have any of these LEDs yet, and am not selling anything yet. I'm current;y trying to get the mfr to let me test one out - one of their standard models. it does 630nm & 660 nm Red: 460nm Blue: 610-615nm Orange in a 7:1:1 ratio (red:blue:orange) they can make any spectrum/ratio i specify.
So what do you guys think? What would be the ultimate in spectrum? Would you want to be able to switch off the reds independent of the blues? Switch on or off a specific wavelength? Have a few green that you can use to see in the dark cycle? thought, comments are Highly sought. Hopefully I can talk them into sending me a unit to test, so I can do a grow log with it. I live in an Apt now with sub par HVAC. HID's will not work here beacause of heat issues. Fluorescents seem weak to me from my experiece, and now my space is too small for my tube fixtures. Heat is an issue and I have my 2'x2' space centered over an AC vent. At the prices I was quoted I should be able to sell them cheaper than anyone else online, as long as I can get enough to offset shipping costs from China.
Thoughts?
-------------------- nothing i have said or done is real. I like to make up stories and post them on the internet. I have nothing better to do.
The mfr I'm looking at also makes LED "tubes" that fit in a T8 fixture/socket, only the driver cicuit is built in the tube, so no need for ballast in fixture. I thinks these might be effective for side lighting, although panels can be used on sides too, the tubes are cheaper than panels though.
I have a small space and live in an apt - in OP. Not trying to do a mass grow, have a 150W HPS I built in a 2'x2' cardboard space. I think the LEDs have a lot of potential. I know you can get a good crop using 1000W of MH and HPS. It has been done millions of times and is the tried and true method. I like Hydro better than soil. Why? my plants seem to like it. Well, you say they seen to like the soil outside too, and the sunlight. Lots of people have issues with heat and such generated by HID when growing in small spaces. There just isn't much "real-world" info out there on LEDs (growers like us) I thought I might go in to business if I couold figure out the right spectrum combination, plus some other feature mentioned in OP. Basically I would like to know What would it take to get someone to switch from what works for them, to something different. I used to be fine with HPS in a different space. I had more room, better A/C, and better ventilation. Now I sweat in the room with my grow space, and my A/C is on 65 constantly. You can see why someone like me has an interest in less heat and less electricity consumption. I even have my AC going directly into my grow box. I would like to try and start selling some sort of products for people like us. There is no local place to go. And internet orders can sometimes tip off the wrong kind of people. I was really just looking for peoples opinion of LEDs. If you could conjure a light source that could be whatever you want, what would it be? (short of a stay-cool micro star that would float above your plant in the grow space, put out light equal to the sun, with no heat- this is what I want) but lets try to keep it realistic.
-------------------- nothing i have said or done is real. I like to make up stories and post them on the internet. I have nothing better to do.
the standard model 300watt fixture has 288 1 watt LEDs in a 7:1:1 ratio of red:blue:orange. 630nm & 660nm Red : 460nm Blue : 610-615nm orange. The mfr has stated that they will custom build panels to my specs as far as wavelengths and their ratio. I haven't been able to ask yet, but they will most likely customize in other ways also. I think being able to switch certain wavelengths on or off may be benefical. Personally I think it would be nice to have a few 500nm greens that you could switch on if you needed to work with plants during the dark cycle.
Ok so I may be closer to getting some of these panels than I thought. The mfr is really trying to make a sale with me. I'm really trying to talk them in to a demo unit I can test to make sure it's gonna work. If so, the prices they are offering me are pretty good from what i've seen other LED panels selling for. What wavelengths would be ideal for MJ. Should it get red and blue all the time, or is it better to give only blue during veg, and only red during flower? I'm thinking full spectrum full time as the sun is a full spectrum... What do you think of green lights for dark cycle?
This guy really wants to sell me some lights. I really want to get that sample out of him. He says the wavelengths and ratios are completely to my spec I specifically asked about UV, 500nm greens, built in timers and switching. no response from the mfr yet.
@mhound they have several differnt type lights, UFO style with 90 LEDS can get them in 1W, 2W, or 3W. In rectangular lights, they make with 119, 288, 144, and 576 LEDs in 1W, 2W, or 3W. They also have tube style lights with 10, 15, 20 or 25 1W LEDs I only have the info on the 288 1w model for PAR it is: 1237.4 umol m^2 s @ 15cm
Depending on shipping I should be able to get them in the $150 range (for a 90W UFO style)
Thanks Pandor. I like your avatar . I would never be able to afford that electric bill. Mine sometimes gets over $300 and I freak out. I would love to grow as a job. I read through your grow log. It was awesome! Sorry you had to let it go. I think LEDs definitely have their place. All light sources have pros and cons.
I started growing a couple of seeds under a 150W HPS. I can't afford the LEDs right now. But the guy in china has offered to let me get 1 at a time. Shipping will probably make that, financially for me, not viable. But I'm not sure of the shipping yet, maybe not.
They don't specify output in Lumens. Lumens measures the spectrum the human eye sees. It is more sensitive to yellows and greens, and less with reds and blues. They did specify Photosynthically Active Radiation @ 15cm is 1237.4 micromoles per meter squared per second. there are 6.023E^23 photons in a mole. this is equal to 745,286,020,000,000,000,000 photons of radiation in frequecies that can be used in photosynthesis, being radiated onto a square meter surface every second with the light 15cm above the surface. This number drops further from the surface. Because lumens and PAR are not convertible, ther is no comparison. The Lumens a light outputs has nothing to do with the PAR a light outputs, and vise-versa. Both are useful measurements, as long as you can compare lumens to lumens and PAR to PAR. What is the PAR output of a 150W HPS? I do not know. Plants reflect a lot of the spectrum that lumens covers, and we cannot see the spectrum that PAR measures as well. IMHO, PAR is a better measure for dealing with plants, as that is specifically what the measurement was designed for. Lumens will tell you how bright a light will be to your eyes. The delemma is that a lot of HID bulbs specify output in Lumens, and PAR is the usual measurement given to LEDs. Hope that helps with output. This is for a LED panel that contains 288 1W LEDs in frequencies from 460nm blue - 660nm red (actual wavelengths are 460nm blue, 610-615nm orange, 630nm and 660nm red in a 7:1:1 red:blue:orange ratio)
-------------------- nothing i have said or done is real. I like to make up stories and post them on the internet. I have nothing better to do.
Would it be better to have a LED Light that could be switched in a way that you could have only blue during veg and only red during flower? If so, what would the ratio of reds to blues to oranges need to be? What about a built in timer? Would you rather have a timer that you could set for any interval, or one that had 3 modes: 24/0; 18/6; or 12/12? These guys in china will basically do whatever. If I'm going to have them build it, I want it to be tailored to this purpose.
there will be a built in timer. Still trying to come up with perfect combination of wavelengths. They don't have UV-B. Is UV-A at all needed? What wavelength is considered "far-red"? in the plan so far is
7 : 1 : 1 RED : BLUE : Orange 630nm 460nm 610nm 660nm 615nm
they can add 390nm-400nm UV-A; and others.
They have some "tube" style lights I mentioned, but they don't require a fixture. They just have a std. power cord. they have them from 10-25 1W LEDs in 60cm(10LED)- 150cm(25LED). These may be useful for side lights.
Would white LEDs be in any way beneficial?
I am looking for any possible suggestions.
@Oregone Do you have a chart or anything that would show a "perfect" spectrum for a MJ plant? Or in general? I like how the one you posted has percentages, I can use that to figure out the LED color ratio I need. I am assuming the one you posted is just showing curves for those bulbs.
And as for home made. It is usually how I roll, but it is actually less expensive to have the Chinese make it. I wouldn't want to have to solder 288 tiny LEDs onto a board. Plus the circuitry. Lots of time + expense of not being able to buy components in bulk.
so after consulting my biology text... the spectrum I want is RED- 630nm & 660nm ORANGE- 610-615nm BLUE- 430nm & 460nm keeping the 7:1:1 ratio
also I have read a lot of other threads on the topic of LEDs. Several people have mentioned that they don't think that LEDs are "good" because grow light mfrs (HPS mfrs) aren't selling these. While I think LEDs show promise, I wouldn't say I'm biased. My point is that the mfrs ARE in it for the money. Replacement bulbs are big business to them. LEDs have a VERY LONG life. This would be contrary to a HPS mfr's business model. So I don't discount them just because Sun or Hortilux doesn't make them. I like the fact that they use less energy and don't produce heat. These 2 things make using anything larger than 150W when using HID impossible for me. and the ballast on this 150W uses as much energy, if not more, as the bulb itself.
Not all of us have $1000's or even $100's to spend on a grow. I wish I could get a decent one going, then afterward, maybe I could get some decent equipment. But still, I want the most end product for the least cost (equipment, nutes, energy, water). Right now, I would be sunk if my electric bill went up $150. I can't have a room with 1 1000W HPS, much less 4 of them. I can't even afford a 400W.
Sorry for the rant, I get envious seeing all the nice equipment with the beautiful plants, while I grow in a box. It upsets me when the peeps who have $$ and nice shit tell others they shouldn't bother unless the buy all the most expensive equipment, and do it big. We all can't afford it (financially, legally, etc. There are so many different situations).
yeah, I got it from my Bio book. Hard to tell exactly where the peaks are on a graph online. looks like 35% 630nm 35% 660nm 10% 610-615nm 10% 460nm 10% 430nm is what I'm going to ask for. Hopefully they have 430nm.
Update: Mfr. just got back to me. The spectrum is 5 bands. as posted above. light is switchable to give blues only, reds only, or reds/blues together. 3yrs warranty. Now I just need some cash to get one. They are even going to put a custom logo on it. They say that each light they make can have spectrum customized to spec if need be. They are cheaper than everywhere else I have seen. Maybe you will see me growing with some sweet customLEDs soon!
-------------------- nothing i have said or done is real. I like to make up stories and post them on the internet. I have nothing better to do.
yep, he said they coud customize the spectrum to be any way we want. could also do greens on the tube style lights, so you're not sacrificing LED used for growing. Might not be so bad on the larger lights, but for the smaller ones it may be an issue.
-------------------- nothing i have said or done is real. I like to make up stories and post them on the internet. I have nothing better to do.
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. I would never be able to afford that electric bill. Mine sometimes gets over $300 and I freak out. I would love to grow as a job. I read through your grow log. It was awesome! Sorry you had to let it go. I think LEDs definitely have their place. All light sources have pros and cons.
