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 ledgrewer
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Registered: 01/30/13
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 The truth about leds 
#656866 - 01/30/13 01:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is coming from past experience with all lights.
In the past I started with these :
400 watt HPS, 250 Watt Digital HPS
T5 Flourescents
I then Tried :
90 Watt UFO LED
180 Watt LED
and then later :
120 watt large CFLS
I am going to give you the details on my experience with each light. The way the leaves are effected and how I can tell the strength of the plants are overall better. I will also give my information on heat for each light.
First off I will start with HPS. They grew the plants pretty well. You will notice when using these lights your leaves are strong feeling, they have a roughness feel when you rub them on your fingers. Good for growing leafy crops I would assume. I used HPS as a flowering light, the 400watt blew and I flowered under a 250 watter, I would say the buds were ok sized, this was years ago.
Secondly I will say the T5's kept the mothers in good shape but the plants didn't have that strong feeling and grew somewhat overall weaker would seem to be the right word, and the growth is also slower. However I would use t5's again for a mother. I will go ahead and talk about 120 watt CFLS in this category also, they put off some decent growth but it is still weak and slow.
Third LEDS. There's a thing about LED's I haven't talked about it much and have wanted to say to indoor growers but it was a discussion I had with a shroomery member that participates in the ethno garden that made me realize the potential for LEDS. Now I started with a 90 watt ufo. This is the problem many people make. They buy the weak LED's. These aren't that good they will grow weak plants similar to a T5/CFL.
When you buy LED's some people buy the panels with the weak lights, another mistake.
The leds you want are the 3 watt leds lights. These lights I have noticed in the past are putting off stronger growth than the HPS was; my only experiments have been with the red spectrum lights. The buds were also on par as for the size of them in a sea of green setup where the plants are kept short being compared to the hps. I wanted to wait to make a post like this until I had pictures but I won't have pictures.
Now on heat, the good LED's put off more heat than a CFL noticeably more, but significantly less than the HPS. As of right now I see in certain setups the LED's being better than HPS and even outproducing them. The HPS would also destroy some crops that the LED wouldn't. During one of my tests the plants were flowering and touching the light because of the small tent. The plants seem to grow so much better under the good LED's then any other light I've used and I've used them all.
A 180 watt 3 watt per bulb led of the same spectrum (red) should outgrow or atleast be even to the hps equivalent in circumstances where the plants are kept small with nearly half the heat is what I am saying.
Edited by ledgrewer (01/30/13 02:13 AM)
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mhbound
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#656895 - 01/30/13 01:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Interesting. I don't have any experience with LED's really, but what I have seen is that they just don't match up in bigger grows because of the concentrated area of light. For small grows I could see getting away with them.
I'm still thinking of buying one and doing a real side by side grow, same soil nute strength everything except the lighting will be different.
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 Maestro
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: mhbound]
#656910 - 01/30/13 03:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mhbound said:
Interesting. I don't have any experience with LED's really, but what I have seen is that they just don't match up in bigger grows because of the concentrated area of light. For small grows I could see getting away with them.
I'm still thinking of buying one and doing a real side by side grow, same soil nute strength everything except the lighting will be different.
Yeah it's the only real way to know. I'm actually looking into led's now more then ever cause ill have to downsize my grow space soon. My problem is that all the small led's (I'm gonna have 3ft sq max)
Are shite.
OP. u said when u used hid's the plants grew so tall they touched the lamp? Cause that's a good thing..more growth. Also I'm guessing you didn't have a reflector? It stops plants from touching the bulb..
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: Maestro]
#656913 - 01/30/13 04:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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The leds that are nice I will show you a picture of the good ones (blackstar brand is the only good ones I can speak on, and only the flowering not veg lights since I haven't used them; the flowering lights are grow plants extremely well), they don't touch the bulbs but the built in cool tube like thing. I had some taller strains growing up and bent on the light it was about 4 inches too tall and all of it that was too tall was touching the light and it suffered from some heat stress (partially from such a small area and the ventilation wasn't as good as it should have been) but grew fine.
Also within 18 hours of switching from cfls because the growth didn't seem very strong or fast, to turning on the led + one cfl the red lettuce varieties started showing color (young lettuce plants), and I know the growth will become stronger than it was. When I was able to do tests with weed years ago the purple strains were very purple and showed their colors. The plants just look very healthy under the leds. I also notice they dry the soil out how you want it to so you can rewater the plants instead of it staying in there and getting what seems to be stale is a problem with cfls and weak leds.
Edited by ledgrewer (01/30/13 05:05 PM)
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Maestro
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#656917 - 01/30/13 05:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is there a black star meant for 3 sq ft? I'm talking a computer case or just a small box.
Anyway, I have a plant touching the reflector and its doing great, especially the nug that's touching.
So it was probably lack of ventilation like you said.
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: Maestro]
#656918 - 01/30/13 05:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Maestro said:
Is there a black star meant for 3 sq ft? I'm talking a computer case or just a small box.
Anyway, I have a plant touching the reflector and its doing great, especially the nug that's touching.
So it was probably lack of ventilation like you said.
We are talking about keeping plants in an area that is only 32 inches tall (that was the tents height althougha little taller is good for the size of pots + plants added into the equation) in a sea of green setup and of equivalent hps power (180 watt). With the plants buds pressing against the actual light which would be your hps's bulb. There was some ventilation issues at times from the way the fan was but it was an 8" fan, however the LED runs way cooler than the HPS but still quite a bit hotter than the large 125 watt CFLS. Your plants seem to show the same heat stress where the edges of the leaves curl and sometimes dry/brown not leaf tips but the leaf edges this and stretching were two things caused by the heat during a few periods of time.
Remember that old picture of magashes setup with cups sea of green? A similar setup with 1/2 gallon growbags and the one light inside an area that covered 24 plants tightly packed into it, although two of the leds to cover an area that large in width would have been more ideal, the single light did just fine. It is in this and similar situations I am thinking the LED's are not only more ideal for power and heat but would also maybe even outgrow the hps.
Since penetration isn't much of an issue in sea of green, I do see the leds being able to keep up with or outproduce hps of equivalent power. LED's are currently way better than CFLs. The 180 watt LED put off buds of similar size to the grow I did with 250 watt hps.
Growing larger plants like in your picture I don't know because I personally haven't tested my led's that way.
However I know in small areas the plants growth may even be stronger than with hps. My HPS grows were like 3 and a half years ago when my LED grows were about a year and a half ago. I'm comparing the way the plants grow speed/leaf strength/the way they produce side branches that you'd cut for clones.
Even just looking at a plant you can see the weakness of the leaves with t5's and cfls in comparison to hps for people that use both of those, you can handle the plant leaves grown under hps/leds that would break or mush/destroy leaves under the cfl. These leds are putting off strong plants just like the HPS are, and the fan leaves would also become very large (just another example of strength) larger than my hand on plants that weren't very tall flowering in sog.
I can't even explain really how much better good LED's currently are when put up against 125 watt large CFLS, the way it looks growth is better under a single 180 watt flowering led for veg growth than it is under two 125 watt cfls, and not just the growth but the overall health, structure, and strength of the plant.
I've recently had some non weed plants lettuce/tomatoes go from the flowering led (good growth) to 1 and sometimes two 125 watt cfls without the leds. I seen the growth change to the weaker growth and was disappointed with the larger cfls. Now the lettuce is receiving the LED + CFL and it should flourish and have some really strong growth showing over the next few days. I might show some before/after pictures. They haven't been under the led long but the red variety showed red color within 18 hours of being under the led and everything is overall looking more healthy (aside from the recent wind damage that killed and damaged/dried the edges of some leaves and then they got removed from that location when the led was put on them).
This specific batch of lettuce is young only a couple weeks maybe, there's nearly 30 plants in a small area, and they have spent their full lives under one sometimes two 125 watt CFLS. The growth was decent the leaves were growing but they were weak leaves like I noticed with weed plants in the past on T5's vs hps growth. Within a week or two under LED's I will have strong leaf lettuce that I am assuming will also have much more taste than it would've while also being a thicker and stronger leaf. If you look in the top left you will see the red varieties putting off color, this did not happen until they started getting the LED light. This picture is roughly 18 hours after they started getting LED light, and these lettuces have been harvested a couple times already, I've been thinking about breeding them I've been kind of doing a survival of the fittest thinning out on them I can place them in an area where wind will blow on them kind of hard, this would help produce stronger leaves if left in that position after the weaker ones died off I would believe. You will notice a plant that doesn't get any wind can easily get wind damaged, while if the leaves are grown out in those conditions they will be able to tolerate it. I've been thinking about breeding the lettuce the ones that best survived the harsh conditions (constant winds) and grew best under led lighting but haven't looked into the details on the actual breeding of lettuce yet. Some of the lettuce is already more crunchy (showing the leave strength I am talking about).
For outdoor growers moving my plants from the led to the cfls was similar to taking a plant in full sun and putting it into a location that gets morning sun then full shade the new growth won't be as tough among some other things. It had a similar effect on growth. Even when you do this to cacti the new growth can start growing out in a smaller diameter than it was.
Edited by ledgrewer (01/31/13 02:44 PM)
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: Maestro]
#657001 - 01/31/13 03:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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here's an image of mostly blue widow day 15 in flowering from clones, that stretched a little too much from some heat stress (it got up to the hundreds at one point the smaller area made temperature control harder). This is the only pictures I have I had some of the purples but they got deleted over time and the video was kept.
You can already tell which one was hitting the light and bending itself.
You can see the edge curl type heat stress I am talking about in this one, this may also be a little related to some drought the soil was a very light mix that dried fast so they were always needing water (watered once every third day or so). The way I was growing them was flushing them with water every watering pretty much, the soil would dry fast, and the excess can be vacuumed. I had good control of what they were eating, could emergency flush at any time, and it seemed like hydroponics more than soil. The mix used mostly perlite some coco and some vermiculite and I notice from looking at the roots, the roots grow differently you get more of a tap root than they grow when in a mix with more or full coco/soil.
Since it was so long ago it is hard to show what the structure would look like on a mother, however, those images are showing the plants after they jumped in sizes in unbelievable amounts (some nearly 5x it's cutting size) in 15 days from being small but strong cuttings due to the lighting change to 12/12.
This one was under a weaker 1 watt per bulb led but receiving side lighting off of the 180 watt which was still probably the main one that did the growing just off its side lighting. These are all from a video at 15 days into flowering, I don't have any other pictures of the finished or cuttings/mothers.
Dinafem blue widow is the most vigorous and indica looking plants I've seen so far, but also very branchy and sometimes non weed shaped looking leaves. Aside from dinafem roadrunner that auto is one of the strongest plants I've seen out of like 12 strains (twice in a row, the first one had purple in the genetics), by strongest I mean plant genetics looking and has also outgrew nearly 12 different strains on 2 different occasions from seed nearly doubled the size. However the smoke isn't bad in sensimilla I didn't really notice it being a weak bud it tasted good. Everything dinafem so far has been the best and very accurate the purple widow breeder was correct on purple but the genetics are so/so. Paradise seeds seems to have some germination issues, however the genetics once grown out are good too. There's a few others I could speak on but so far dinafems plants have been accurate to the description and normally the strongest plants in the batches from when I was testing the different breeders seeds.
Edited by ledgrewer (01/31/13 04:49 PM)
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#657042 - 01/31/13 10:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Even if you were to put 3-5 125 watt CFL's (the big ones). I am not sure if the growth would be the same, the plants change more into what an hps would grow a plant like and grow differently and just look more healthy. I'm not sure if CFL can achieve that type of growth, it just doesn't seem like they would even with more and more lights. Stems are also very thick.
It's almost like the cfls have a lot of wasted spectrum or something, while the leds are concentrated in what the plant needs. The 3 watt lights are also very bright.
Edited by ledgrewer (01/31/13 10:56 PM)
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mhbound
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#657084 - 02/01/13 09:05 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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CFL's put off a ton of heat. I know you wouldn't think it, but a 150 watt cfl will put off more heat than a 150 hps.
They are just inefficient and a poor choice for growing.
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: mhbound]
#657095 - 02/01/13 10:13 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mhbound said:
CFL's put off a ton of heat. I know you wouldn't think it, but a 150 watt cfl will put off more heat than a 150 hps.
They are just inefficient and a poor choice for growing.
I notice less heat with the cfls the heat is there but is minimal you get a little ventilation going and the heat is nearly unnoticeable, while an hps made me sweat in my own room.
The led is like 3-5x the heat of one of the cfls, they also pack enough heat when not having the room ventilated (in combination with my computer which putts off more heat than the lights) can make me sweat in my room but is much easier to control the heat than the hps because it is significantly less (180 watt led vs 250 hps).
With led and cfls keeping the room at room temperature is much easier just by using a little ventilation and blowing air around. With the hps that wasn't really happening the ventilation really needs to be blown in the attic if I want to use hps again. Whereas leds and cfls can just be blown straight into the room and temperatures are maintained easily enough both inside and outside the tents. With a larger tent the led stays what the house stays at in the tent like low 70s due to the circulation of the air (out from the top in from the bottom with the light placed balanced more on the high side) by the time the hot air gets blown out of the tent it doesn't even seem as hot anymore. The hps just wouldn't do this.
For me it isn't even a choice as to which one to choose for flowering even vs hps I'd go with the large size per bulb led. If I could get higher than 3watt I would. I'd only use hps if I were flowering a very large plant under it.
Edited by ledgrewer (02/01/13 03:28 PM)
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#657135 - 02/01/13 06:28 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not sure if you will be able to notice the subtle texture and color changes I am noticing only two days in, the plants are going to be changing. It is what I seen when plants went to flowering from t5 to hps, and the same changes from 1watt led/cfls to 3watt led flowering.
18hrs switch from just cfl to led + cfl
2 days of led + cfl (one day after the picture before it)
Some of the weaker lettuce dried and died off, I covered the roots with coco. The plants are in transition to growing stronger growth and old growth is dieing off and/or converting to closer to how the newer growth will be.
I have already had a full circle pot full of this lettuce and harvested like a leaf or two off each plant. The lettuce wasn't showing any purple or reds until the leds were put on them.
Lettuce is a good plant for showing this it grows extremely fast if only I had the previous leaves that grew pictured from under the cfls to show you a comparison. However you can see the non harvested leaves as the plants go from cfl only to using the 3 watt leds with the cfl just being used beside it (the led is a flowering model).
This cacti has been barely kept alive has even went years without lighting and water. The growth that it put out during that time was scrawny/small growths on the plant, and it started eating itself from the bottom up. Then it was put under the leds for a while and the growth started growing really fast and swelling up. Then it fell victim to CFL lighting for a while and is now getting the leds again. It is very happy and very fast growing under the leds. This is a seed grown cacti of mine it was coming from a full plant being yellow state, all the outer darker green growth is new growth (led growth) for the most part.
Edited by ledgrewer (02/01/13 10:09 PM)
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#657867 - 02/07/13 05:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'll post another pic in about a week they are about to get trimmed and the old leaves taken off the newer growth should all be how it should be.
They weren't really fed much (up until the led they got a full feeding but they did get some feedings before that not at full str) and sowed in straight coco, so they were showing signs of def aside from being weaker from the lights.
Edited by ledgrewer (02/08/13 03:00 PM)
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#658031 - 02/08/13 02:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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From using a light tester i can see that the intensity of the led light declines fairly quickly as you get farther away from it (as far as lumens go) however the cfls seemed to have just as many lumens (hits the max of what I have anyways) but grows plants a lot worse, therefore, I don't think lumens effects growth as much as proper spectrum. Also, this would have me conclude that leds are good when what they shine on is going to be what is producing buds, but if it has to go far down, those far down buds won't be very productive, therefore scrog and sog would be more than ideal with good leds. I would use leds over hps in any sea of green type scenario of smaller plants, for quite a few reasons. However, in any scenario where the plants will be getting large and you will need penetration (not scrog i think leds could do a good scrog) I'd probably use hps instead. Sinec I won't be using hps again I'll just wait until i see what the higher wattage lights can do, I'm sure the new lights that come out later that hit higher wattages per bulb will penetrate better than hps and grow way better than hps per watt, hps won't be used for growing any longer in the near distant future all the extra setupblowing heat around, heat, and possibly even electricity for the minor reduction of bud for certain setups isn't worth it even larger scaled operations, unless all the plants are going to get kinda large.
Edited by ledgrewer (02/08/13 03:00 PM)
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#658598 - 02/11/13 11:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow, it has already been four days and I thought I posted that yesterday.
The plant all the way on the right that looks kinda like a datura/brug is a purple tomatillo plant that will be bonsai'd.
i'm thinking about harvesting again but I'm pretty sure the growth is slowed down quite a bit and I want to get a good harvest so I might just leave the leaves on for a little longer.
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#658743 - 02/12/13 01:06 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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the chinese leds are more white normal looking and seem to be more suited for veg, it grows the plants fairly well it seems.
However, I doubt these would flower like the all red + uv blackstars. I think they'd compliment them during flowering greatly because it would give a more balance to the spectrum. I just don't see the cheaper chinese lights that are 3w flowering like a blackstar does.
Chinese led makes the tent look purplish white.
Blackstar makes it noticeably reddish orange pink.
The blackstars run about twice as hot as the chinese leds. Both are 3watt bulbs, maybe the spectrum plays a role to the heat given off by leds.
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#658767 - 02/12/13 03:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be more clear on this last post, the 300 watt 3 watt per bulb more balanced spectrum light (its just the chinese leds) seems to be more of a white light. The blackstar LED it's like a 240 watt with 3 watt per bulb (Flowering model) is more of an all red light and runs nearly twice as hot as the other led that has more overall watts and same bulbs of same watts. The difference is spectrums.
If these blackstars were even just 10 watts per bulb I think HPS would see a huge decrease in use in growrooms, as of right now I think the 3 watts competes with hps watt for watt, but only in certain types of grows, the ten watts or higher I can see it outdoing hps, in all grows.
I think I'm going to grow lettuce outdoors every year now after this.
It grows like grass with very little caring for it and is a very fast growing plant, it also doesn't look bad, if you were to like use it as a decoration using different lettuces together to decorate with you could make it look nice.
Lettuce is quickly becoming one of my favorite crops (my first time growing it), and I think spinach will be too since I like eating spinach more but haven't grown it yet.
I seen nice decorations but that's a more basic outdoors lettuce garden.
I want to breed it indoors also and get some that is used to growing indoors, when I bred plants outdoors in the weather the second generation grew so much better than the parents did in that weather. Maybe seeds are about like leaves and recognize the conditions they were raised in or something.
Need proof of this? Put a nice strong fan on a plant that has received 0 wind it's whole life and watch a ton of it's leaves get screwed up and fall off. However, it's new leaves will have a resistance if the plant handles it and doesn't die.
Now, grow a plant in this and it is just fine the leaves have some kind of immunity from being raised in this environment, they are also a stronger plant from this.
I don't know other than indoors vigor what I want to breed for, taste or color, maybe both. I'm not sure if Crossbreeding is possible yet, I need to look more into lettuce, however I do know the basics and a little more to the basics of breeding and getting what you want from it. I should plant like a few hundred more and pick some select plants. I haven't tried selecting any in this batch but I do have a few in mind from vigor.
Edited by ledgrewer (02/12/13 03:48 PM)
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#658774 - 02/12/13 04:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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This purple tomatillo plant also got the switch at the same time from cfls to leds and is now flowering. Some plants when into flowering within a day or two of the led switch, probably from the spectrum being such a drastic switch from cfl white lighting to very red leds.
As you can see 1 : the plants leaves are nice and strong, the plants stem is nice and thick; 2 : the roots are fine with invisible walls and I can clearly see how much water is left inside these pots, when there is a little bit the roots are sucking from the bottom 1/3rd or so from the pot, I can tell even if the pot is extremely light.
That's not powdery mildew my plants when watered get rained on, not watered through the roots, but the whole plant gets rained on, root and leaf fed at the same time. That's dried up nutrients, it can be seen on the cup in the next pic. The getting rained on is almost like the wind scenario it could fuckup plants that aren't used to it sometimes.
The cfl growth on everything is different, I've seen it multiple times from cfl to hps, and from cfls to leds. The blackstar all red leds is about like growth from direct sun (atleast for the non shaded parts that it is hitting, the surface of the plant).
I might do some root trimming soon. I'm currently growing everything in 100% coco, which is just to keep the small pots able to hold more water so I don't have to water as often giving up growth speeds for it.
Here's what the cacti looks like in just 10 days later :
Edited by ledgrewer (02/12/13 05:06 PM)
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zzzzzz
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#659585 - 02/19/13 11:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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IDK about all those other lights personally, but I'm using T8s and my plants are sturdy as hell. Very short internodes and very thick stems on short plants. See my grow journal for pics.
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ledgrewer
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: zzzzzz]
#660039 - 02/23/13 01:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzzzzz said:
IDK about all those other lights personally, but I'm using T8s and my plants are sturdy as hell. Very short internodes and very thick stems on short plants. See my grow journal for pics.
Look do you see this leaf? I can hold this leaf in my hand even after the plant wasn't fed for nearly 2 weeks and the leaves were weaker from not being watered.... And I can stretch it as if it were a rubberband. Your t8's or any flourescent bloodlined lamp will never put off a leaf like this.
You don't have to know about the leds, because i know about flouros very well.
The actual thickness of this leaf should be 3-5 times what a cfl grown plants leaves are like, the vains in the leaves should also be more strong and extrude outwards more.
I used t5's the plants leaves are weak as fuck, the plants stems will get thick no matter what with TIME, however that tomato plant is less than a month old in that picture and tomatoes are vines.
T8 shouldn't compare to leds on any level at all, and I'm not even going to look because I already know.
The flourescent line of lights just are not up to par with hps or leds in terms of the plants stregnth.
There is methods to use while growing to encourage the plant to get used to certain conditions and make it even stronger of a plant, and using a good light is one of those methods.
The somewhat amount of heat along with the extra fans creates a better environment in the growtent that a flouro light never will. This is drying out the soils and they don't get moldy.
I've used all lights, what you were seeing what plants grown in cfl (shit lighting like you have) then switched to leds for about a week and the changes are drastic just as if you were to switch over to an hps, an hps grower should be able to tell you that.
Here's the tomato plant now waiting on the second ones flowers :
The cacti grows too fast under these lights
The plants were given only one of the two lights (the chinese) for the past 3 or 4 days or so which is kind of huge in amount of time for growth cutting off half the light since I got too lazy to want to water them.
Edited by ledgrewer (02/24/13 12:13 AM)
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zzzzzz
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Registered: 02/18/13
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: The truth about leds [Re: ledgrewer]
#660239 - 02/25/13 09:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ledgrewer said:
Quote:
zzzzzz said:
IDK about all those other lights personally, but I'm using T8s and my plants are sturdy as hell. Very short internodes and very thick stems on short plants. See my grow journal for pics.
Look do you see this leaf? I can hold this leaf in my hand even after the plant wasn't fed for nearly 2 weeks and the leaves were weaker from not being watered.... And I can stretch it as if it were a rubberband. Your t8's or any flourescent bloodlined lamp will never put off a leaf like this.
You don't have to know about the leds, because i know about flouros very well.
The actual thickness of this leaf should be 3-5 times what a cfl grown plants leaves are like, the vains in the leaves should also be more strong and extrude outwards more.
I used t5's the plants leaves are weak as fuck, the plants stems will get thick no matter what with TIME, however that tomato plant is less than a month old in that picture and tomatoes are vines.
T8 shouldn't compare to leds on any level at all, and I'm not even going to look because I already know.
The flourescent line of lights just are not up to par with hps or leds in terms of the plants stregnth.
There is methods to use while growing to encourage the plant to get used to certain conditions and make it even stronger of a plant, and using a good light is one of those methods.
The somewhat amount of heat along with the extra fans creates a better environment in the growtent that a flouro light never will. This is drying out the soils and they don't get moldy.
I've used all lights, what you were seeing what plants grown in cfl (shit lighting like you have) then switched to leds for about a week and the changes are drastic just as if you were to switch over to an hps, an hps grower should be able to tell you that.
Here's the tomato plant now waiting on the second ones flowers :
The cacti grows too fast under these lights
The plants were given only one of the two lights (the chinese) for the past 3 or 4 days or so which is kind of huge in amount of time for growth cutting off half the light since I got too lazy to want to water them.
Sounding a little aggressive there, ledgegrewer. I certainly wasn't attacking you. But, did you go see my results? People have had poor results with LEDs and HPS too. But I'm doing this super budget style. As I mentioned in my log, the only money we really have in it is the bulbs. 18x32W T8s. Look at the internode distance of the bare stem in one of the pictures. Not enough light, you think? ;-)
PS. the picture you show as "proof" doesn't mean anything without a comparison picture with it.
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