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 Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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 Dutch Master 
#499664 - 11/20/10 01:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Any of you guys use this nutrient line and what did ya think of it?
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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 Re: Dutch Master [Re: Magash]
#499669 - 11/20/10 02:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I looked into Dutch Master as I was interested in their "superior" organic hybrid technology, chelating methods, etc.
Their penetrator / saturator (not identical products) is not a superior foliage spray due to the point of deliquescence of the potassium nitrate used in the saturator and the mono ammonium phosphate used in the penetrator each with a POD of 93%RH calcium nitrate has a POD of 53%RH. Unless Dutch Master has some innovative ingredient I highly doubt either of these products are great foliage sprays. I actually have a test I'm going to conduct feeding severely hungry plants by foliar feed using DM vs. whatever concoction I make.
The main nutrients are supposed to be decent/good, DM One is a great stand alone nutrient never heard of anyone not liking it.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Cool thanks.
How about this FOLITECH product they have? Any thoughts on it?
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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 Psuper
حشيش حشّاشين
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 265
Loc: Left Coast
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Re: Dutch Master FOLIAR PRODUCTS [Re: Magash]
#499681 - 11/20/10 03:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't have a review of any Dutch Master's products, but I'll mention the company Optic Foliar which popped up earlier this year because the guy behind that company was from Dutch Master and sells a two-part +wetting/delivery agent (making the two-part a three-part system; they don't call it that, just sayin'). I have had samples of all three of these products. These Optic Foliar products are the same as some of Dutch Master's products but more concentrated, more expensive, and aren't separated into grow and bloom formulas.
**Or let me say, the folks from Dutch Master are the ones saying that the products' formulas are pretty much identical**
Optic Foliar Transport == Dutch Master's Penetrator (which use to be sold under the name Saturator)
Optic Foliar Mega Watts == Dutch Master's Liquid Light.
Optic Foliar Rev == is probably most similar to Dutch Master's Add 2.7 which is a two-part (grow/flower) product.
**For those who don't have a catalog in front of them the other option for a "complete" foliar lineup from Dutch Master besides the three products just mentioned is to instead use Dutch Master Max-FX which is also designed to be used with the wetting/delivery agent Penetrator. Max-FX comes in both a Grow and Bloom so this whole lineup would be three separate bottles.
Lastly Dutch Master has Folitech which is another separate grow and bloom formula to add a wetting/delivery agent to. And is not to be used alongside the Liquid Light, but can be used with Add 2.7. What I don't know about the Folitech thoug is that their website says you can use with Add 2.7 and Max but I don't know if that means Max their two part fertilizer or Max-FX their two-part foliar.........
Both Optic Foliar and Dutch Master advise to NOT adjust pH levels in their foliar mixes. Which I like.
Both companies advise to feed up to the fourth week of flowering-- Dutch Master says, "up until approximately the end of the 4th week of flowering" and Optic foliar says, "up to week 4 of flower".
If anyone owns Dutch Master's Silica I'd love to know the concentration and source of silicon in the bottle. The reason being is that it is always more expensive than other silica supplements I see, like Botanicare's Silica Blast, which I use.
I managed to score a few extra samples of the Transport from Optic Foliar so when my other samples ran out I went back to using a cold-extracted kelp-based product along with this wetting/delivery agent for a foliar mix.
EDIT:maryanne3087, the catalog and info I have says penetrator/saturator is the same thing.....you've read different?
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Edited by Psuper (11/20/10 03:29 PM)
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master FOLIAR PRODUCTS [Re: Psuper]
#499700 - 11/20/10 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psuper said:
If anyone owns Dutch Master's Silica I'd love to know the concentration and source of silicon in the bottle. The reason being is that it is always more expensive than other silica supplements I see, like Botanicare's Silica Blast, which I use.
Every bottle of silica I've checked is either Potassium Silicate or some natural clay. Potassium Silicate is the standard, I use AN barricade because it's highly concentrated and I get it for cheap.
EDIT:maryanne3087, the catalog and info I have says penetrator/saturator is the same thing.....you've read different?
They have different ingredients with the same POD so they should work similarly. The whole penetration delivery technology crap they claim is basically the idea of foliar feeding but hyped/marketed. A good foliar feed will penetrate the foliage you dont want to spray stuff on your leaves that isn't 1. going to be absorbed readily either from too high of a POD or lacking a surfactant 2. provides wanted nutrition 3. doesn't have unlisted or questionable contents I think the use of some PGRs and hormones can be a good or great thing but I think the grower should know exactly what is going into their plants.
calcium nitrate or cal/mag+ has a 53%RH POD where saturator containing potassium nitrate has a 93%RH POD the penetrator uses mono-ammonium-phosphate which also has a POD of 93%RH.
A concoction of cal/mag, humic acids, a surfactant, kelp extract, worm casting tea would thump most if not all commercial foliage sprays and if it doesn't it's probably because those commercial sprays contain "excessive" PGR's/phytohormones which you would be better off selecting for yourself, dosing yourself, etc.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: Magash]
#499702 - 11/20/10 04:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
Cool thanks.
How about this FOLITECH product they have? Any thoughts on it?
No, I haven't picked up a bottle and Dutchmaster don't like to post labels. The MSDS says that it's to aid in plant nutrition and to be used alongside Saturator. It's not a substitute for saturator so it could just be some expensive nutrients but I have no idea. It's not a very popular product since the gold line sprays have come out which are as far as I can gather, absolute garbage.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Yeah that's pretty much what I'm getting from my info gathering also. Thanks. 
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
Registered: 07/05/10
Posts: 981
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: Magash]
#499900 - 11/21/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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A few Questions:
What is POD?
Are these sprays full fertilizers, or just various supplements, and what are the benefits of delivering them in a foliar spray, as opposed to just traditional watering?
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: kyuzo]
#499908 - 11/21/10 01:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Point of Deliquescence (POD) is the relative humidity that best keeps elements/compounds in solution. This is very important for foliage feeding and is why we spray and don't just dust with dry fertilizers.
VHO by Advanced Nutrients contains potassium nitrate and ammonium nitrate it probably contains a bunch of hormones too.
There are various benefits of foliage spraying vs. feeding via root depending on what it is you are foliar feeding. I think feeding calcium nitrate foliar is a good idea because calcium is immobile when allocated to different plant tissues so it's important to provide adequate amounts. Some nutrients also pass through the cuticle into the leaf tissues with ease, not foliar feeding these just wouldn't make a great deal of sense esp if they also happen to be fairly immobile nutrients like calcium which plants often lack.
There's a discussion on another forum which was recently locked, but a grape grower used foliar feedings of Phosphites to feed his grapes which allowed him to cut back on his total P use by 80%, this would also benefit the soil as high P can negatively effect the soil life. I need to look into this more but I believe spraying hormones/pgr's is the most efficient way to apply them.
Foliage can uptake nutrients 6 times faster than the roots.
Spraying worm castings and other living sprays contributes to the phyllosphere, basically the leaf environment for microbes as the rhizosphere is to the root area.
Maybe we should start a foliar feeding thread?
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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hmm i dunno about passing through a waxy cuticle. what nutrient does that?? anything(nutrient) dissolved in water would be pretty hard to get through. contact with cells would work alot better. in general foliar feeding to me sounds like shoving food up your ass. putting nutrients in where water and co2 want to escape. it could however also induce some hormonal response?? im interested in the concept and to see resuts, just have not read far into it.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500028 - 11/22/10 01:13 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:
hmm i dunno about passing through a waxy cuticle. what nutrient does that?? anything(nutrient) dissolved in water would be pretty hard to get through. contact with cells would work alot better. in general foliar feeding to me sounds like shoving food up your ass. putting nutrients in where water and co2 want to escape. it could however also induce some hormonal response?? im interested in the concept and to see resuts, just have not read far into it.
Several nutrients do that cations do it more readily than anions by swelling the cuticle layer.
Foliar feeding is a lot like shoving food up your ass. Your ass contains a lot of blood vessels that can absorb medicine, water, basically anything dissolved in water bypassing digestion much like the higher rate of absorption via foliar feeding.
Some things sprayed on your plants will induce systematic acquired resistance (SAR) but so will a lot of things, and SAR is often beneficial to plants.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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you still need some sort of conduit for it to get through waxy cuticle. plants produce this waxy cuticle to protect it from water and salts and shit so seems kind of silly to go against plant. id like to know what they add to get through this. also explain how it selects cations over anions?? seems like a good BS line to say they get the more "nutrient" portion your trying to get in. interested but still not convinced. im sure it works a bit in plants that have less or no waxy cuticle. It seems like it would really only be good for getting trace minerals, is that what you guys are going for?? perhaps foliar feeding is only good for correcting a deficiency in micros??
and try and shove food up your ass see if you survive haha. point was trying to get food to go in somewhere things are suppost to exit 
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500089 - 11/22/10 12:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Does calcium nitrate sound like micros to you? It's probably the easiest nutrients to provide via foliar feeding. Calcium nitrate will penetrate the cuticle layer of the leaf very easily. As it has a suitable POD of 53% (see above or below for POD)
I do not foliar feed to correct deficiencies in micros/trace elements, I rarely get deficiencies and when I do they're either N or Mg. The reason I foliar feed is it is very efficient at providing the plant with nearly any nutrients you want.
Earlier I posted about different elements having varying POD's (Point of deliquescence) which is the RH at which the nutrients in solution will stay soluble. Cations stay soluble at lower RH and Anions stay soluble at higher RH.
Do some research and post up and maybe we can have an actual discussion instead of your posts being along the tune of "That doesn't sound right, convince me."
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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k is POD used in a different way other then being liquid at that point? how does that point make it more efficient or capable of passing through a wax layer?? also explain to me how Cations stay soluble longer then anions?? i assume you are talking about salts in solution. chloride does not precipitate out of solution quicker then sodium rather they come out together.
sodium nitrate is hygroscopic so what? pulls moisture from air perhaps keeping solution from drying on leaves and giving more of a chance for other nutrients to pass through?? or just perhaps the Nitrogen is suppost to get through the wax somehow, which i doubt. ohh here http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T66-4HVF0PX-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1551544686&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8a60fc91f34a67ccc41e8160da027060&searchtype=a
doesnt work in peas the control with foliar feeding with salt did not se any marked improvement. im sure there is studies that say opposite ill keep looking
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500181 - 11/22/10 08:02 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:
k is POD used in a different way other then being liquid at that point? how does that point make it more efficient or capable of passing through a wax layer?? also explain to me how Cations stay soluble longer then anions?? i assume you are talking about salts in solution. chloride does not precipitate out of solution quicker then sodium rather they come out together.
sodium nitrate is hygroscopic so what? pulls moisture from air perhaps keeping solution from drying on leaves and giving more of a chance for other nutrients to pass through?? or just perhaps the Nitrogen is suppost to get through the wax somehow, which i doubt. ohh here http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T66-4HVF0PX-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1551544686&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8a60fc91f34a67ccc41e8160da027060&searchtype=a
doesnt work in peas the control with foliar feeding with salt did not se any marked improvement. im sure there is studies that say opposite ill keep looking
I'm too tired and high right now to look for the paper. There's a lot of information out there about cations passing the cuticle layer of various plants (I've seen one using cannabis as the plant) more so than anions. Cations are supposed to swell the cuticle layer making it easier to pass.
I didn't say cations stay in solution longer than anion, I said that they have a more desirable POD. At typical growroom humidity say (50-55%) cations will stay in solution longer at this RH than anions because the POD of anions is typically 90%RH and cations typically 50%.
What's all this talk about NaCl?
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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sorry you must have edited it). POD is at which point it is in liquid or no? you just worded it in a round about way that cations are more soluble with POD.
NaCl was how they stressed the plants to see if foliar feeding would help them at all
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500219 - 11/22/10 11:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I haven't edited anything.
Cations POD is generally better suited for indoor growing since cations PODs are around 50%RH and Anions around 90%RH. If you're growing cannabis indoors your RH will be around 50% RH, making cations more soluble under such circumstances.
POD refers to the RH when the nutrient will be liquid, yes.
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maryanne3087
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Cations(positively charged) are preferred over anions(negatively charged) because plants are (negatively charged) which is why electrostatic sprayers are said to be the best for foliar feeding.
I just read that explanation but I don't recall what I previously read. I'm going to search for some information on the subject.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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my point is one part of the salt does not stay dissolved while other does, cant see how that can happen without an energy  but just because of POD how does that make the nutrient pass a inert wax layer,like trying to get a shock standing on rubber shoes. maybe some sort of surfactant or in another solvent other then water?? cheers
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500488 - 11/24/10 01:38 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think it's because it's a cation (has a positive charge) and the plants are negatively charged, again this is why electrostatic sprayers work so well. This swells the cuticle? I'm not a plant physiologist and I don't have the full explanation but would like one.
The lower POD makes the nutrient more favorable because of typical grow room conditions. This is unrelated to the cuticle swelling.
Quote:
my point is one part of the salt does not stay dissolved while other does, cant see how that can happen without an energy
without an energy?
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