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 Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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 Dutch Master 
#499664 - 11/20/10 01:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Any of you guys use this nutrient line and what did ya think of it?
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maryanne3087
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 Re: Dutch Master [Re: Magash]
#499669 - 11/20/10 02:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I looked into Dutch Master as I was interested in their "superior" organic hybrid technology, chelating methods, etc.
Their penetrator / saturator (not identical products) is not a superior foliage spray due to the point of deliquescence of the potassium nitrate used in the saturator and the mono ammonium phosphate used in the penetrator each with a POD of 93%RH calcium nitrate has a POD of 53%RH. Unless Dutch Master has some innovative ingredient I highly doubt either of these products are great foliage sprays. I actually have a test I'm going to conduct feeding severely hungry plants by foliar feed using DM vs. whatever concoction I make.
The main nutrients are supposed to be decent/good, DM One is a great stand alone nutrient never heard of anyone not liking it.
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Magash
The Feminizer
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Cool thanks.
How about this FOLITECH product they have? Any thoughts on it?
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
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 Psuper
حشيش حشّاشين
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Re: Dutch Master FOLIAR PRODUCTS [Re: Magash]
#499681 - 11/20/10 03:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't have a review of any Dutch Master's products, but I'll mention the company Optic Foliar which popped up earlier this year because the guy behind that company was from Dutch Master and sells a two-part +wetting/delivery agent (making the two-part a three-part system; they don't call it that, just sayin'). I have had samples of all three of these products. These Optic Foliar products are the same as some of Dutch Master's products but more concentrated, more expensive, and aren't separated into grow and bloom formulas.
**Or let me say, the folks from Dutch Master are the ones saying that the products' formulas are pretty much identical**
Optic Foliar Transport == Dutch Master's Penetrator (which use to be sold under the name Saturator)
Optic Foliar Mega Watts == Dutch Master's Liquid Light.
Optic Foliar Rev == is probably most similar to Dutch Master's Add 2.7 which is a two-part (grow/flower) product.
**For those who don't have a catalog in front of them the other option for a "complete" foliar lineup from Dutch Master besides the three products just mentioned is to instead use Dutch Master Max-FX which is also designed to be used with the wetting/delivery agent Penetrator. Max-FX comes in both a Grow and Bloom so this whole lineup would be three separate bottles.
Lastly Dutch Master has Folitech which is another separate grow and bloom formula to add a wetting/delivery agent to. And is not to be used alongside the Liquid Light, but can be used with Add 2.7. What I don't know about the Folitech thoug is that their website says you can use with Add 2.7 and Max but I don't know if that means Max their two part fertilizer or Max-FX their two-part foliar.........
Both Optic Foliar and Dutch Master advise to NOT adjust pH levels in their foliar mixes. Which I like.
Both companies advise to feed up to the fourth week of flowering-- Dutch Master says, "up until approximately the end of the 4th week of flowering" and Optic foliar says, "up to week 4 of flower".
If anyone owns Dutch Master's Silica I'd love to know the concentration and source of silicon in the bottle. The reason being is that it is always more expensive than other silica supplements I see, like Botanicare's Silica Blast, which I use.
I managed to score a few extra samples of the Transport from Optic Foliar so when my other samples ran out I went back to using a cold-extracted kelp-based product along with this wetting/delivery agent for a foliar mix.
EDIT:maryanne3087, the catalog and info I have says penetrator/saturator is the same thing.....you've read different?
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Edited by Psuper (11/20/10 03:29 PM)
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master FOLIAR PRODUCTS [Re: Psuper]
#499700 - 11/20/10 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psuper said:
If anyone owns Dutch Master's Silica I'd love to know the concentration and source of silicon in the bottle. The reason being is that it is always more expensive than other silica supplements I see, like Botanicare's Silica Blast, which I use.
Every bottle of silica I've checked is either Potassium Silicate or some natural clay. Potassium Silicate is the standard, I use AN barricade because it's highly concentrated and I get it for cheap.
EDIT:maryanne3087, the catalog and info I have says penetrator/saturator is the same thing.....you've read different?
They have different ingredients with the same POD so they should work similarly. The whole penetration delivery technology crap they claim is basically the idea of foliar feeding but hyped/marketed. A good foliar feed will penetrate the foliage you dont want to spray stuff on your leaves that isn't 1. going to be absorbed readily either from too high of a POD or lacking a surfactant 2. provides wanted nutrition 3. doesn't have unlisted or questionable contents I think the use of some PGRs and hormones can be a good or great thing but I think the grower should know exactly what is going into their plants.
calcium nitrate or cal/mag+ has a 53%RH POD where saturator containing potassium nitrate has a 93%RH POD the penetrator uses mono-ammonium-phosphate which also has a POD of 93%RH.
A concoction of cal/mag, humic acids, a surfactant, kelp extract, worm casting tea would thump most if not all commercial foliage sprays and if it doesn't it's probably because those commercial sprays contain "excessive" PGR's/phytohormones which you would be better off selecting for yourself, dosing yourself, etc.
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: Magash]
#499702 - 11/20/10 04:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
Cool thanks.
How about this FOLITECH product they have? Any thoughts on it?
No, I haven't picked up a bottle and Dutchmaster don't like to post labels. The MSDS says that it's to aid in plant nutrition and to be used alongside Saturator. It's not a substitute for saturator so it could just be some expensive nutrients but I have no idea. It's not a very popular product since the gold line sprays have come out which are as far as I can gather, absolute garbage.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Yeah that's pretty much what I'm getting from my info gathering also. Thanks. 
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: Magash]
#499900 - 11/21/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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A few Questions:
What is POD?
Are these sprays full fertilizers, or just various supplements, and what are the benefits of delivering them in a foliar spray, as opposed to just traditional watering?
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: kyuzo]
#499908 - 11/21/10 01:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Point of Deliquescence (POD) is the relative humidity that best keeps elements/compounds in solution. This is very important for foliage feeding and is why we spray and don't just dust with dry fertilizers.
VHO by Advanced Nutrients contains potassium nitrate and ammonium nitrate it probably contains a bunch of hormones too.
There are various benefits of foliage spraying vs. feeding via root depending on what it is you are foliar feeding. I think feeding calcium nitrate foliar is a good idea because calcium is immobile when allocated to different plant tissues so it's important to provide adequate amounts. Some nutrients also pass through the cuticle into the leaf tissues with ease, not foliar feeding these just wouldn't make a great deal of sense esp if they also happen to be fairly immobile nutrients like calcium which plants often lack.
There's a discussion on another forum which was recently locked, but a grape grower used foliar feedings of Phosphites to feed his grapes which allowed him to cut back on his total P use by 80%, this would also benefit the soil as high P can negatively effect the soil life. I need to look into this more but I believe spraying hormones/pgr's is the most efficient way to apply them.
Foliage can uptake nutrients 6 times faster than the roots.
Spraying worm castings and other living sprays contributes to the phyllosphere, basically the leaf environment for microbes as the rhizosphere is to the root area.
Maybe we should start a foliar feeding thread?
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the man
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hmm i dunno about passing through a waxy cuticle. what nutrient does that?? anything(nutrient) dissolved in water would be pretty hard to get through. contact with cells would work alot better. in general foliar feeding to me sounds like shoving food up your ass. putting nutrients in where water and co2 want to escape. it could however also induce some hormonal response?? im interested in the concept and to see resuts, just have not read far into it.
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500028 - 11/22/10 01:13 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:
hmm i dunno about passing through a waxy cuticle. what nutrient does that?? anything(nutrient) dissolved in water would be pretty hard to get through. contact with cells would work alot better. in general foliar feeding to me sounds like shoving food up your ass. putting nutrients in where water and co2 want to escape. it could however also induce some hormonal response?? im interested in the concept and to see resuts, just have not read far into it.
Several nutrients do that cations do it more readily than anions by swelling the cuticle layer.
Foliar feeding is a lot like shoving food up your ass. Your ass contains a lot of blood vessels that can absorb medicine, water, basically anything dissolved in water bypassing digestion much like the higher rate of absorption via foliar feeding.
Some things sprayed on your plants will induce systematic acquired resistance (SAR) but so will a lot of things, and SAR is often beneficial to plants.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
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you still need some sort of conduit for it to get through waxy cuticle. plants produce this waxy cuticle to protect it from water and salts and shit so seems kind of silly to go against plant. id like to know what they add to get through this. also explain how it selects cations over anions?? seems like a good BS line to say they get the more "nutrient" portion your trying to get in. interested but still not convinced. im sure it works a bit in plants that have less or no waxy cuticle. It seems like it would really only be good for getting trace minerals, is that what you guys are going for?? perhaps foliar feeding is only good for correcting a deficiency in micros??
and try and shove food up your ass see if you survive haha. point was trying to get food to go in somewhere things are suppost to exit 
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500089 - 11/22/10 12:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Does calcium nitrate sound like micros to you? It's probably the easiest nutrients to provide via foliar feeding. Calcium nitrate will penetrate the cuticle layer of the leaf very easily. As it has a suitable POD of 53% (see above or below for POD)
I do not foliar feed to correct deficiencies in micros/trace elements, I rarely get deficiencies and when I do they're either N or Mg. The reason I foliar feed is it is very efficient at providing the plant with nearly any nutrients you want.
Earlier I posted about different elements having varying POD's (Point of deliquescence) which is the RH at which the nutrients in solution will stay soluble. Cations stay soluble at lower RH and Anions stay soluble at higher RH.
Do some research and post up and maybe we can have an actual discussion instead of your posts being along the tune of "That doesn't sound right, convince me."
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the man
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k is POD used in a different way other then being liquid at that point? how does that point make it more efficient or capable of passing through a wax layer?? also explain to me how Cations stay soluble longer then anions?? i assume you are talking about salts in solution. chloride does not precipitate out of solution quicker then sodium rather they come out together.
sodium nitrate is hygroscopic so what? pulls moisture from air perhaps keeping solution from drying on leaves and giving more of a chance for other nutrients to pass through?? or just perhaps the Nitrogen is suppost to get through the wax somehow, which i doubt. ohh here http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T66-4HVF0PX-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1551544686&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8a60fc91f34a67ccc41e8160da027060&searchtype=a
doesnt work in peas the control with foliar feeding with salt did not se any marked improvement. im sure there is studies that say opposite ill keep looking
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500181 - 11/22/10 08:02 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:
k is POD used in a different way other then being liquid at that point? how does that point make it more efficient or capable of passing through a wax layer?? also explain to me how Cations stay soluble longer then anions?? i assume you are talking about salts in solution. chloride does not precipitate out of solution quicker then sodium rather they come out together.
sodium nitrate is hygroscopic so what? pulls moisture from air perhaps keeping solution from drying on leaves and giving more of a chance for other nutrients to pass through?? or just perhaps the Nitrogen is suppost to get through the wax somehow, which i doubt. ohh here http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T66-4HVF0PX-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1551544686&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8a60fc91f34a67ccc41e8160da027060&searchtype=a
doesnt work in peas the control with foliar feeding with salt did not se any marked improvement. im sure there is studies that say opposite ill keep looking
I'm too tired and high right now to look for the paper. There's a lot of information out there about cations passing the cuticle layer of various plants (I've seen one using cannabis as the plant) more so than anions. Cations are supposed to swell the cuticle layer making it easier to pass.
I didn't say cations stay in solution longer than anion, I said that they have a more desirable POD. At typical growroom humidity say (50-55%) cations will stay in solution longer at this RH than anions because the POD of anions is typically 90%RH and cations typically 50%.
What's all this talk about NaCl?
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the man
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sorry you must have edited it). POD is at which point it is in liquid or no? you just worded it in a round about way that cations are more soluble with POD.
NaCl was how they stressed the plants to see if foliar feeding would help them at all
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500219 - 11/22/10 11:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I haven't edited anything.
Cations POD is generally better suited for indoor growing since cations PODs are around 50%RH and Anions around 90%RH. If you're growing cannabis indoors your RH will be around 50% RH, making cations more soluble under such circumstances.
POD refers to the RH when the nutrient will be liquid, yes.
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maryanne3087
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Cations(positively charged) are preferred over anions(negatively charged) because plants are (negatively charged) which is why electrostatic sprayers are said to be the best for foliar feeding.
I just read that explanation but I don't recall what I previously read. I'm going to search for some information on the subject.
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the man
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my point is one part of the salt does not stay dissolved while other does, cant see how that can happen without an energy  but just because of POD how does that make the nutrient pass a inert wax layer,like trying to get a shock standing on rubber shoes. maybe some sort of surfactant or in another solvent other then water?? cheers
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500488 - 11/24/10 01:38 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think it's because it's a cation (has a positive charge) and the plants are negatively charged, again this is why electrostatic sprayers work so well. This swells the cuticle? I'm not a plant physiologist and I don't have the full explanation but would like one.
The lower POD makes the nutrient more favorable because of typical grow room conditions. This is unrelated to the cuticle swelling.
Quote:
my point is one part of the salt does not stay dissolved while other does, cant see how that can happen without an energy
without an energy?
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the man
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energy or seperatory column(which uses charges so same as energy i guess) to keep them (ions) apart when coming out of solution
Edited by the man (11/24/10 12:32 PM)
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500577 - 11/24/10 01:34 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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POD is one of the factors for elements staying dissolved. IE. calcium nitrate would stay dissolved when RH is over 53%.
Otherwise I don't really know what you're getting at.
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the man
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you suggested that calcium woudl stay in solution longer(in dropping humidity) then nitrate
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500607 - 11/24/10 03:40 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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The only instance where I even wrote calcium without nitrate following it in this thread is when discussing calcium being immobile in plant tissues.
I'm not sure what you're referring to.
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the man
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cation is calcium nitrite in anion 
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500655 - 11/24/10 06:43 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Calcium nitrate is a cation which is my first concern when selecting a nutrient for foliar feeding.
I don't know how if the nitrate component being a anion would affect it's permeability once separated from the calcium in solution. I also don't know what Nitrate's POD is, generally anions have higher POD's but they're not all the same.
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the man
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calcium is a cation. nitrate is the anion. together they are a salt once in a solution they seperate into there ions Ie Ca and NO3. read up on how salts dissolve. about ions, cations and anions and not from the marketed bottle. this is basic stuff i am sorry i sort of jacked your thread magash, i was really trying to understand how or if this shit works.
SORRY
Peace
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500754 - 11/25/10 05:34 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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er. I meant to say they Calcium Nitrate has a net positive charge.
Just because a nutrient such as Calcium Nitrate is dissolved in solution doesn't mean the all the nutrients are disassociated into their ionic form.
I don't have a marketed bottle, I order my Calcium Nitrate (amongst other things) from a chemical supply company.
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the man
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as a matter of fact it does! hehe. anyway no worries man
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500810 - 11/25/10 12:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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the man
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do you know what that actually means?? yes they pass from solids to solution at dif temps. you cant get a solid salt into a plant and they do not form seperate cation and anion portions in solid form, if thats what you think it says your wrong. your basically showing that you read that you know salts seperate into ions, good. have you ever done any of these calculations?? i have, not to brag as im not an expert in chem. anyway, read up.
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500860 - 11/25/10 08:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:
do you know what that actually means?? yes they pass from solids to solution at dif temps. you cant get a solid salt into a plant and they do not form seperate cation and anion portions in solid form, if thats what you think it says your wrong. your basically showing that you read that you know salts seperate into ions, good. have you ever done any of these calculations?? i have, not to brag as im not an expert in chem. anyway, read up.
The dissociation constant is the equilibrium between the concentrations of dissociated and not dissociated compound.
The calcium nitrate doesn't entirely turn to Ca and No3 in solution there's going to be a balance between Ca and No3 and Calcium Nitrate.
I don't know what the limitations of plants being able to absorb nutrients are but it wouldn't change the fact that there will be Ca, No3, and Calcium nitrate in the solution at once.
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the man
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ya so its either a salt of ions.. have you ever made super salty water?? when solid stays in teh bottom new salt is deposited and some is dissolved. thats what that is talking about nothing to do with yoru point. if its in solution it is not a solid man its the seperate ions... calcium is the cation not the molecule jeebus... read
sorry i do this every time. sorry magash!!!!! again
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jkell
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500889 - 11/25/10 11:22 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I love when intelligent people have arguments 
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500919 - 11/26/10 02:02 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sorry i do this every time. sorry magash!!!!! again
Not a problem.
Your wasting your time when you argue with somebody who never thinks they are wrong.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#500922 - 11/26/10 02:35 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said:
ya so its either a salt of ions.. have you ever made super salty water?? when solid stays in teh bottom new salt is deposited and some is dissolved. thats what that is talking about nothing to do with yoru point. if its in solution it is not a solid man its the seperate ions... calcium is the cation not the molecule jeebus... read
sorry i do this every time. sorry magash!!!!! again
I said I don't know how well the Nitrate is absorbed.
You seemed to think that disassociation happens to the entire solution and there's no recombination to Calcium Nitrate. I'm not talking about a solid I'm talking about calcium nitrate in the solution that is not disassociated. It has nothing to do with my point it's just something you claimed and I said wasn't true.
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the man
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: Magash]
#501276 - 11/27/10 07:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
Quote:
sorry i do this every time. sorry magash!!!!! again
Not a problem.
Your wasting your time when you argue with somebody who never thinks they are wrong.
ya i had that thought before bed last night. pretty much what i thought you would think
Cheers!
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maryanne3087
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#503061 - 12/04/10 05:19 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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A paper regarding POD's of various salts.
http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=594_5
Abstract:
Laws of cuticular penetration have been elucidated using calcium and potassium salts. These salts have hydration shells and they penetrate cuticles by diffusing in aqueous pores of molecular dimensions. Cations and anions penetrate in equivalent amounts, because electrical neutrality must be maintained. Penetration is a first order process and salts deposited on the surface of the cuticles disappeared exponentially with time. Velocity of penetration can be best quantified using first order rate constants or half times of penetration. Rates of penetration were greatly affected by humidity over cuticles, and hygroscopicity of salts. Penetration requires dissolution of the salt. This is determined by the point of deliquescence (POD) of the salt and humidity over the salt residue. POD is defined as that humidity over a saturated solution containing solid salt. When humidity is above POD the salt residue on the cuticle dissolves, while below a solid residue is formed and penetration ceases. Hence, salts suitable for foliar nutrition should have a low POD. The following salts meet this criterion: CaCl2 (33%), MgCl2 (33%) K2CO3 (44%), Ca(NO3)2 (56%) and Mg(NO3)2 (56%). Salts having POD’s above 90% (for instance K2HPO4, KH2PO4, KNO3, Ca-acetate, Ca-lactate and Ca-propionate) are not suitable for foliar nutrition, as they penetrate only at a humidity close to 100%. When humidity is above POD rate constants of penetration increased with increasing humidity by about a factor of three and maximum rates were measured at 90 to 100%. This is attributed to swelling of cuticles. The driving force for cuticular penetration is the concentration difference across the CM. Ion concentrations in the apoplast are in the millimolar range while water solubility of inorganic salts can be very high. Fortunately, with the exception of MgCl2 all salts mentioned above having a low POD’s also have high aqueous solubility ranging from 1.25 to 6.60 kg per kg water which shows that driving forces are very large following spray application and evaporation of excess water. Plasticiser and temperature did not affect rates of penetration and spraying should be done in the evening to take advantage of high humidity during the night. The effect of wetting agents and other adjuvants on rates of penetration is discussed.
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maryanne3087
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the man
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"Cations and anions penetrate in equivalent amounts, because electrical neutrality must be maintained."
that was talking about salts having to be able to suck up moisture from the air to dissolve basically so that it can have a longer time to be absorbed and not just sit on the outside. salts in the spray are in solution ie dissolved or into ions. that abstract was written in sort of laymen s terms as it was for a symposium. solid things arent in solution but saturated can form some "crust" or precipitated crystals as ph changes or less water. if you do read any papers (most im sure you dont have access to) on the subject there generally is flaws in there experiments as they have no prevention of the foliar feed to get to the roots.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#503246 - 12/05/10 04:08 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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You think the foliar feed will get to the roots? That's an interesting thought. Have you ever foliar fed your plants before?
I still don't know why you insist that salts in solution are disassociated into ions especially after I posted the disassociation constant that illustrates that there's an equilibrium between the two. I can only assume this is what you're talking about by your use of "solid things aren't in water" or "salts in the spray are in solution ie dissolved or into ions".
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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by definition my man by definition....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution
these salts that are good for foliar are extremely soluble. put your feed in a glass jar see if things settle out or perhaps run it through a coffee filter see what happens.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#503309 - 12/05/10 10:25 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Search disassociation constant, recombination, etc.
Or go back a few posts and read the wiki page that illustrates the equation there will be a balance between the seperation of say calcium nitrate and recombination of the ions larger molecules.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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oh man u dont get it eh jeez.
yes ions seperate in solution and yes they do recombine into solid. however this is only the case when solution is evaporated and in a saturated situation. whats your point? how does any of that prove how/if this method works? you cant pass solids through the leaf dude, these salts are picked because they basically are the most soluble forms and can stay as a SOLUTION longer on the leaf. i dunno really why i argue with you ever as u just throw stuff out there and think somehow it means something... yes you read labels good job.
do you guys just use it in veg?? i imagine not very good in the smoke.
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knowboddy
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 9 days
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#513380 - 01/13/11 12:26 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Anyone who's actually done foliar feeding knows it works. Ultimately getting into a scientific argument is pointless when it's so easy to simply ask the question, test the hypothesis, and come to the obvious conclusion: foliar feeding works.
We know it does. Arguing about why is academic. Arguing whether it does is ridiculous. (And those of us who can follow the debate can see how clearly one-sided the density of knowledge is.)
That said, you can foliar feed in veg or flowering with extreme caution to getting moisture into developed buds. The obvious concerns with bud rot means that few growers will risk wetting their plants after flower development begins or passes a certain point they consider to be "too far". To play it safe, stick with veg-only.
Oh, and Magash... I love the animated gif in your signature. Flawless.
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: knowboddy]
#514647 - 01/17/11 03:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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id be interested to know how these sprays affect stomatal densities. as well as if the K influences there activity + or - on stomatal opening.
if nutrients can enter then they also may be stripped from the leaves, which is why they have a cuticle and other such measures the plant takes to not be stripped of nutrients. or again in aprevious post if they strip away the cuticle to allow absorbtion? also some say they use chelated elements which makes even less sense for plants as they are larger harder to get through and are designed for use in animal feed. protein with nutrient attached and plants are primary producers so dont absorb proteins and if they do its very restricted in special cases.
one simple experiment i can think of is use a dye with your foliar feed to see if that goes into the leaves and down to the roots or if the dye comes up from the roots and which works/faster. which is sort of is the way they did the first testing of foliar feeding in 1950 with radiation which was tested by very very imprecise means.
perhaps foliar feeding makes small formations of root cells coming from the vascular tissue to the outside of the stems by way of extra moisture promoting the roots? i could see that working
agriculture is big business like anything scientific studies that have a business attached often are very hard to weed through as hard to know source of there funding and or personal gain. as you have seen in the news lately with teh vaccines.
@knowboddy if you do not seek truth academically then you are a like fundamentalist. and i would not be surprised if you are a christian. which is fine but sort of a silly thing to say. if you find out how or if it works then you gain power to make it better. Huge amounts of problems have been caused in agriculture by doing things just because they seem to be a good thing.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#515363 - 01/18/11 08:41 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nothing wrong with saying something works without knowing it works.
Don't hate Albert Einstein do you?
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Quote:
maryanne3087 said:
Nothing wrong with saying something works without knowing it works.
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BigBudz
USA Mind Controls You!
Registered: 01/18/11
Posts: 133
Loc: Oakland, CA USA 
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: the man]
#515642 - 01/19/11 02:19 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'll be testing the line soon. Right now I used a mix of General Hydro's Organic line and Advanced Nutrients. Unless I find some cheap nutrients on craigslist again, Dutch Master just looks like the best crap they have at the store.
--------------------
Art Music Music 2 Music 3
You are most likely being mind controlled if you live in the USA. The technology was discovered back in the late 1980's. You can easily see weird towers on government buildings...
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/sparkoflife.htm#mindcontrol
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the man
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 825
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: Dutch Master [Re: BigBudz]
#515643 - 01/19/11 02:26 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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try to prevent it from rinsing down into the soil or whatever medium your using. do you have access to a microscope?
perhaps it increases the number of stoma and therefore transpiration.
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knowboddy
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 9 days
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Quote:
maryanne3087 said:
Nothing wrong with saying something works without knowing it works.
Don't hate Albert Einstein do you?
I think you meant to say "... without knowing how it works" or "... without knowing why it works". Correct me if I'm wrong.
And if you're talking about what I think you're talking about regarding Einstein (the curvature of space as a description of gravity) I think the analogy is a little mis-matched.
Albert Einstein staked his reputation on the belief that his model to describe the celestial movements we observed before he could figure out the math to back it up. (Newtonian physics alone didn't accurately predict the movement of the planets.)
Then, once he worked out the formulas to describe his theory he still couldn't prove it because he needed some (then) very tricky and precise photographs to be taken during a solar eclipse to prove he was correct.
We're kind of the other way around here (ignoring the obvious science that does prove foliar feeding works). We can very simply and easily observe the effects of foliar feeding and conclude correctly that it works. Science had to catch up and figure out why it worked rather than whether it worked.
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