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 Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal 
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 206's Coco/perlite thread 
#394035 - 04/01/10 06:13 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Didn't want to derail that poor guys thread anymore so let's discuss it in here.
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206 said:
http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=779_67
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=108257
I'm trying to find the university of arizona link but can't. They did a tomato trial way back with nearly identical results among the three, although they knew very little about coco as a medium.
I can link a bunch of individual grows and claims of improvement to, but don't know how interested you are.
The benefits of coco are all in the roots really. In hempy with perlite (as you know) the roots grow into a mat above the res, but in a perlite/verm or especially perlite/coco hempy they will propogate the medium entirely. Verm and coir both have 20% CEC which is why cutting with either usually turns out better than 100% perlite which has 0% CEC. I think you would be the ultimate person to run a trial since you already have 100% perlite hempys dialed in though. Even if it wasn't a side-by-side it would be nice to compare consecutive grows. I'm willing to bet your yields (and bud-sites) increase. Another 24 hours or so between waterings might add years to the life of your back too :P
This guy says it better:
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One thing worth talking about is the CEC capacity of coco, allowing it to store/concentrate nutrients only to release them to the roots later. A well-saturated coco coir medium therefore - it seems - allows roots to feed more efficiently on a smaller surface than peat soil (lower CEC) or rockwool/hydrotones (zero CEC).
So, rather than saying that the roots didn't expand (in coco) because the medium was too wet, let's say that you were using too big pots, because with coco you can reduce the size and get the same results, the proof being that your coco plant outdid the others with a smaller root system.
http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm (Last several paragraphs mostly)
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Harry_Ba11sach said:
This is the reason I actually don't grow straight perlite hempys. I had 2 plants last round in the straight perlite simply because I ran out of vermiculite, but vermiculite is what soil scientists like to call a 2:1 expansive clay, meaning that it's 2 layers of tetrahedral silicon lattice sandwiching a layer of octrahedral crystalline silicon. This layers effect gives vermiculite an INSANELY high CEC in addition to the water retention capabilities.
http://www.growery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/319765#319765
So I guess my question then is; what's the advantage of using perlite in addition to coco instead of just straight coco? from what I hear coir has far more that enough porosity to support sufficient root-zone oxygenation, so whats the advantage of using perlite in there? seems to me that it would just further reduce the CEC.....
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206 said:
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Harry_Ba11sach said:
hmm I just read through that ICmag link you posted. Very interesting
Long story short for anyone shy of reading, guy ran a side-by-side and perlite/coir yielded 12% more than straight coir. This is inline with my experiences and those of most growers that have actually tried both.
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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So the first question I want to pose to Mr.206 - Have you any thoughts regarding CoCo croutons? It seems to me that these would be the better of all the options with the high CEC of Coco, but the porosity and water retention of straight perlite. with a flood and drain setup set to feed multiple times a day I would think that this system could maximize yields pretty hardcore. Captain.Koons sent me a link the other day where a guy yielded over 5lbs with just 2KW and a 4x8 flood table 
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 DieselB
High Watt Closet
Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 1,156
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
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Good stuff, 206. 10%+ isn't bad.. Would be nice to see someone do some more definitive testing. I have atleast 5-6 bricks of Botanicare coco anyway.. I might atleast do it in a couple buckets.
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If you ain't smokin' dro, you're smokin' reggie. 
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Crusty Ass Bastard
Pheno Hunting
Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 786
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: DieselB]
#394497 - 04/02/10 10:02 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Harry_Ba11sach said:
So the first question I want to pose to Mr.206 - Have you any thoughts regarding CoCo croutons? It seems to me that these would be the better of all the options with the high CEC of Coco, but the porosity and water retention of straight perlite. with a flood and drain setup set to feed multiple times a day I would think that this system could maximize yields pretty hardcore. Captain.Koons sent me a link the other day where a guy yielded over 5lbs with just 2KW and a 4x8 flood table
I haven't tried the croutons yet but I want to. I've always added hydroton to the bottom of my pots and this grow as a top mulch and 10% mixed in. I sense a little improvement but as I'm working with different strains now its hard to say. I would like to replace my hydroton with coir croutons though and maybe increase the mix to 20-30%. So perhaps 30% coir, 30% coir croutons, 40% perlite. In that icmag link the guy used several different grades of coco and the blended pots seem to have turned out the best. I believe that about 5lbs w/ 2kw that guy must have had a real beastly strain though.
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DieselB said:
Good stuff, 206. 10%+ isn't bad.. Would be nice to see someone do some more definitive testing. I have atleast 5-6 bricks of Botanicare coco anyway.. I might atleast do it in a couple buckets.
Yeah I might do some tests of my own in the future, I just don't have room right now due to # restrictions.
I'm using botanicare bricks on my current grow too. Tried sunleaves and bed-a-beast previously but like these the best so far. I don't buy bags of expanded coco because I feel like they're still bending people over with the pricing. It reminds me of soft drinks at fast food resturants, I bet the profit margins are similar too...
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coda
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,736
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I'll have to try out some coco next run. I have a brick of it somewhere I can use, but I think I'll pick up something from my local shop since it's more suited for growing. If I can get a 12% increase in yield just by adding some coco I'm all for it 
That's pretty sweet if you ask me. Doing the math with 50 grams per plant @ 4 plants that would be almost an extra ounce for just mixing in some coco lol.
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MFDoom666: sobriety kills my buzz every time.
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Crusty Ass Bastard
Pheno Hunting
Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 786
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: coda]
#404593 - 04/21/10 11:41 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Last week I began breaking down 20 gallons of used coco/perlite/hydroton from previous grows and will be re-using all of it for the first time as opposed to just hydroton. After removing all clumps of visible roots and stirring the pile daily and airing it out for a week I potted up this morning and will begin weak flushes using 10ml/gal of cannazym (breaks down roots + into macros & micros your plant can feed on) over the next week. Then PH'd water until I'm ready to put something in them.
Hopefully trying to save the environment doesn't cost me in the form of pests or other problems, but I don't think it will. 
Anybody else re-used coco indoors? It was much less work than I imagined.
Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (04/21/10 11:42 AM)
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DieselB
High Watt Closet
Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 1,156
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
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Are you gonna do a mix of the three, or am I misunderstanding?
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If you ain't smokin' dro, you're smokin' reggie.
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Crusty Ass Bastard
Pheno Hunting
Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 786
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: DieselB]
#406030 - 04/23/10 09:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieselB said:
Are you gonna do a mix of the three, or am I misunderstanding?
Yeah, about 40% coir / 40% perlite / 20% hydroton. This will be the first time I've reused coco or perlite though which is what I'm nervous about, especially the coco. If I don't have any problems with it next grow I'll keep on recycling it though, it was so damn easy.
Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (04/23/10 09:55 PM)
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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I thought I'd add that coco should be an easy fixer-upper for reusing.
I'm thinking its use as a mush substrate casing as well as bulk sub illustrates it's natural resistance to harmful microlife.... A crappy 'bucket pasteurization' of coco works just fine where straw or manure will contaminate if not pasteurized more rigorously.
I'm also seriously considering going hempy or coco soon... Do you have to use chelated nutes, or can organic work?
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Crusty Ass Bastard
Pheno Hunting
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Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: DudeTron]
#407495 - 04/27/10 07:31 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DudeTron said:
I thought I'd add that coco should be an easy fixer-upper for reusing.
I'm thinking its use as a mush substrate casing as well as bulk sub illustrates it's natural resistance to harmful microlife.... A crappy 'bucket pasteurization' of coco works just fine where straw or manure will contaminate if not pasteurized more rigorously.
Yeah I noticed the same thing about coir when I was growing boomers.
Quote:
DudeTron said:I'm also seriously considering going hempy or coco soon... Do you have to use chelated nutes, or can organic work?
I've followed some organic coco grows before that were awesome. Coir is the perfect medium for organic IMO. The high air volume coir retains = bigger population of beneficial organisms = bigger yields. Most coco-specific chemical nutes have lower K and added ca + mg though so keep that in mind when selecting an organic and use a ca/mg supplement especially during the first week you transplant to coco.
Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (04/27/10 07:32 AM)
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bLITzkRIEg420
Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 6
Loc: iN a lIVINg hELL
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Hey everyone, new to hempy and interested in the thread. Building my 1st hempy as we speak for some L.A. Woman and RockLock and ready to get it going... Was going to use a 3 - 1 Perl/Verm mix and the hydroton on the bottom under the water line. Going to add an airstone to the rez as a friend has had good results that way. I was told to use vermiculite instead of coco because coco leads to pH trouble? Does Coco effect your pH? Using Botanicare grow, bloom, liquid karma, cal mag and sweet... I have always grown in soil and have never started seeds for a Non-Soil grow so I'm a little freaked about that.
*edited for readability -coda*
Edited by coda (04/27/10 04:23 PM)
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Crusty Ass Bastard
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: bLITzkRIEg420]
#407521 - 04/27/10 08:44 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bLITzkRIEg420 said:
Hey everyone, new to hempy and interested in the thread. Building my 1st hempy as we speak for some L.A. Woman and RockLock and ready to get it going... Was going to use a 3 - 1 Perl/Verm mix and the hydroton on the bottom under the water line. Going to add an airstone to the rez as a friend has had good results that way. I was told to use vermiculite instead of coco because coco leads to pH trouble? Does Coco effect your pH? Using Botanicare grow, bloom, liquid karma, cal mag and sweet... I have always grown in soil and have never started seeds for a Non-Soil grow so I'm a little freaked about that.
Harry_Ba11sach or Coda are the guys to ask about Hempy.
Its really easy to test the quality of your coco:
Put 1 liter of coco in a pot
Flush 1.5 liters of distilled water through the pot
Measure the runoff
If it is under 250ppm you are going to be fine, if it is over 250 keep flushing with more water until it isn't.
The stuff about it changing the PH of a soilless mix is bunk. Lots of people use coco in hempys with great results FWIW.
Edited by Crusty Ass Bastard (04/27/10 08:45 AM)
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: bLITzkRIEg420]
#407523 - 04/27/10 08:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bLITzkRIEg420 said:
Hey everyone, new to hempy and interested in the thread. Building my 1st hempy as we speak for some L.A. Woman and RockLock and ready to get it going... Was going to use a 3 - 1 Perl/Verm mix and the hydroton on the bottom under the water line. Going to add an airstone to the rez as a friend has had good results that way. I was told to use vermiculite instead of coco because coco leads to pH trouble? Does Coco effect your pH? Using Botanicare grow, bloom, liquid karma, cal mag and sweet... I have always grown in soil and have never started seeds for a Non-Soil grow so I'm a little freaked about that.
K first of all there is no need for that much vermiculite. I do about a 9:1 ratio, but if you really want to do a bunch of verm you could go as high as 5:1.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with the reservoir thing... Hempy's are top watered by hand. If you're going to be doing recirculating DWC in the buckets then you shouldn't be using ANY vermiculite in my opinion.
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bLITzkRIEg420
Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 6
Loc: iN a lIVINg hELL
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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3:1 is the ratio in most of the info I have read... 9:1 is news to me. What I meant about the rez was simply putting an air stone below the water line in the bucket to aerate the water at the bottom of the bucket. Why would that effect a mix and does coco cause pH troubles?
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wATCHINg tHe gRASs gROw
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: bLITzkRIEg420]
#407528 - 04/27/10 09:38 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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I suppose you can put an airstone in the bottom of the bucket if you want, I don't see how it could work, but it's not necessary and I don't personally feel like purchasing all those airstones and pumps to keep that running. Hempy's work so well because of their simplicity.
Also, 3:1 or 4:1 are common, but you should do some more reading. I've seen people grow with NO verm whatsoever and get magnificent results (I tried it myself and it worked pretty well also). I personally don't like that much vermiculite in my buckets because it just simply retains too much water to encourage healthy root growth. Also, vermiculite has an extremely high cation exchange capacity which just complicates things when you're trying to flush.
Coco is not hempy. tons of people grow with top watered coco and I don't think they have any pH issues, but if you're using coco you can't call it a hempy, because it just simply isn't 
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bLITzkRIEg420
Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 6
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Thanks HBallz... I'm here to learn which can be very hard as usually the people with the answers crap on you instead of teach. I thought the thread was about perlite/coco hempy? Then you just said, "but if you're using coco you can't call it a hempy, because it just simply isn't "... Guess I'm just too many bong hits into my morning. Thought you were talking about adding coco to hempy buckets instead of Vermiculite. I will for sure listen to your advice and go light on the verm. Thanks for the input!  I have 3gal buckets, I'm putting my holes 2" from the bottom and filling the bottom up to the water line with hydroton. Going to start in SuretoGrow starter plugs and go with your 9:1 ratio. Fuck the air stone at the bottom in fact I just threw it across the room.
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wATCHINg tHe gRASs gROw
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: bLITzkRIEg420]
#407533 - 04/27/10 10:04 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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 well I didn't mean to encourage violence towards airstones but... yeah, you show that bitch who's boss! (btw thanks jerk, you just made me actually laugh out loud in class and everyone gave me a weird look because the lecture we're receiving today is anything but funny  )
The hydroton idea is good. Nice thinking
in a 3 gallon bucket I think 2" is a little too high, that's like 25% of your entire bucket. I'd go with about a standard inch or so from the bottom and you should be good.
Also, this thread is technically about cutting straight coco with perlite. Doesn't make these hempy buckets, but they are another form of handwatered hydroponics which makes them in the same category as hempys. Hempy is Perlite and Vermiculite only... anything else makes it not a hempy technically
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bLITzkRIEg420
Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 6
Loc: iN a lIVINg hELL
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Thanks for the help HbAllz... I'm on it with 1" and a 9:1, Like I said this will be my 1st grow out of soil. I'm like a caveman standing upright. But they say hempy is so easy we can do it.
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wATCHINg tHe gRASs gROw
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coda
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,736
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: bLITzkRIEg420]
#407629 - 04/27/10 04:27 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hempy's dead simple, I managed that my first run with it 
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MFDoom666: sobriety kills my buzz every time.
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: 206's Coco/perlite thread [Re: coda]
#407658 - 04/27/10 05:11 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Are you trimming off the fan leaves while your flowering or something?? There doesn't seem to be much foliage.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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