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 Rahz
Stranger
Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 22
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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 Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent  [Re: Rockahaus]
#771573 - 03/10/15 09:09 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's just providing a current to an emitter and keeping it cool.
The Vero datasheets show the LPW for various drive currents.
For non-typical currents the datasheets have charts, one showing current -vs- voltage. It can be used to find the voltage for a particular current. Voltage X current = watts. Another chart shows luminous flux (lumens) as a percentage of the standard currents output -vs- current. Standard output X (percentage) = lumens @ your chosen drive current. Standard output X (the percentage) / watts = LPW.
Using that info I can see that a Vero 29 wired to a 700mA driver will use about 25-26 watts and produce 140-142 lumens per watt.
From there you just need a way to keep it cool. You can get more complex wiring up the emitters in series or in parallel, but you can also just buy a power supply for each emitter like I did. Emitters are wired to the power supplies, power supplies are wired to a positive and negative terminal, terminals are wired to a power cord. Plug it in and it is on. People have been using CPU coolers and getting really good results. My plan was to use passive cooling so I took a chance on cheap radial heat sinks I found on ebay that were advertised as 50 watt heatsinks. My first lamp I paired them up with Vero 18 pushing 31 watts. They ran a little hot so I use a couple fans blowing air across the lamp and they stay reasonably cool. That lamp has produced 1.1 GPW. The new lamp uses the same heatsinks but I'm only driving the Vero 29s at 25 watts and the heatsinks stay nice and cool without fans and has produced 1.2 GPW.
It hasn't been an exact science for me since I haven't been measuring temps with a temperature probe. Without knowing the exact temp of the thermal junction it's not possible to know the exact LPW the emitter is putting out. 140 LPW is probably a good guess for my new lamp. At any rate, 1.2 GPW is the figure I like and makes me feel like I built a lamp that out produces retail offerings of any brand. Engineers can build lamps, but they're also trying to build something as cheaply as possible and tack on as much profit as they can. I'm getting more output for the money and the light takes up the whole tent rather than a small group of emitters hanging in the center. This lamp sits about 6 inches above the canopy during flower.
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Rockahaus
No Till Newbie
Registered: 02/27/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
#771618 - 03/11/15 07:36 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Dude, that is a wild looking light. It looks like you used all white lights too. I may be over thinking it, just seems real confusing to know you are getting the right spectrum of light. like do you really need uv and ir, or even green light which I think Blackdog is using for photosynthesis.
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 phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly) 
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
#771652 - 03/11/15 10:00 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is pretty sweet looking for a home made fixture. Do you have any photos of it in action?
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
 Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Rahz
Stranger
Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 22
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
#771657 - 03/11/15 01:02 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rockahaus said:
Dude, that is a wild looking light. It looks like you used all white lights too. I may be over thinking it, just seems real confusing to know you are getting the right spectrum of light. like do you really need uv and ir, or even green light which I think Blackdog is using for photosynthesis.
There is some science behind uv and ir supplements, but it's also a flashy selling point. To keep things in perspective you can see the spectrum distribution for white emitters on the datasheets. Compare that to a spectrum distribution chart for HPS. White LEDs are obviously superior to HPS with or without supplements.
I used all 3000K emitters on that lamp. Plenty of blue for veg.
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Rahz
Stranger
Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 22
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
#771659 - 03/11/15 01:06 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
phychotron said:
That is pretty sweet looking for a home made fixture. Do you have any photos of it in action?
Sorry I do not, but it was pretty.
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Rockahaus
No Till Newbie
Registered: 02/27/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
#771662 - 03/11/15 01:22 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have about 2 more months before i'll be able to get a light,and you got me thinking about a diy light. I still heard the parts are pretty expensive just by themselves. At least for good LEDs. Any good links to look at first?
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Rahz
Stranger
Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 22
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
#771668 - 03/11/15 02:42 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bridgelux emitters are a little less expensive than Cree. The Cree can run a little more efficient, so you could get by with fewer emitters nullifying the price difference. I'm specifically referring to Bridgelux Vero29 and Cree 3070.
For a general price gauge, here are the parts I used:
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?mpart=BXRC-30E10K0-L-03&vendor=976
http://www.powergatellc.com/mean-well-plm-40-power-supply.html
The Heatsinks can be found on ebay for $12-13 (make offer) if you do a search for "50 watt led heat sink" They may arrive needing some sanding.
So that's 28+16+12 ($56) for each unit. I used 14, plus the cost of hardware: aluminum frame, nuts, bolts, washers, screws, terminal posts, wire, power cord, thermal paste, which is around $100.
It's the expensive way to DIY LED (my lamp was about $900). It can be much cheaper if you use fans.
Vero29 @ 1.05A = 39 watts, 5160 lumens, 132 LPW paired with a CPU cooler would run really cool. 16 of those in a grid would be 1 emitter over every foot of space in a 4x4 tent, 82,500 lumens total. The cost for it assuming the CPU cooler was about the same price as the passive heat sinks I used would be about $1000-1100. You could of course choose to use less emitters and run them harder. The Vero 29 running at recommend specs (2100mA) is an 80 watt unit. 9 of them in a grid would supply 720 watts at about 120 LPW for a cost of maybe $700!
For a space that size, a single lamp probably isn't the best idea, though the 9 emitter configuration over a 4x4 would weigh less than my lamp. For a 16 emitter setup, 4 strip lamps with 4 emitters @39 watts might make sense. Find the right power supply for the fans and you could wire them in series, or you could create an air conduit for the heat sinks and you might get by with a single beefy fan for each lamp (1 fan for each 4 emitters) though there would be some guess work involved in that setup. The advantage to using CPU coolers for each emitter is that it has been done many times and there are plenty of examples.
Or... you could spend the extra money and build two of the passive 2x4 units similar to mine. It would be 700 watts and cost around $1700-1800.
As you can see, there are lots of design considerations. Spending less entails getting more creative and complex... but you don't need to be a engineer to figure it out.
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
#771682 - 03/11/15 05:28 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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I ordered a few LED's and switches for a flashlight project last night and this thread got me thinking about getting a fixture of my own started. I'm thinking about getting copper heat sink though. Then maybe putting it in a large piece of PVC and have air channel through that, although I would prefer passive cooling.
Not sure I'd go with the larger watt diodes, maybe sticking with 10w maximum to spread the light out as much as possible over the canopy. I'm thinking two or three skinny bars that are about 42" long each, separated evenly and mounted as one fixture.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Rahz
Stranger
Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 22
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
#771696 - 03/11/15 08:03 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not sure I'd go with the larger watt diodes, maybe sticking with 10w maximum to spread the light out as much as possible over the canopy.
I agree with that principal. Vero 10s are 9 watt units at nominal current (4.4 watts and 132 LPW at 175mA) and cost less than $5 so I'm sure something interesting could be done with them wired in series. 
Larger COBs do have advantages though, efficiency for one if you were trying to reach 140-150 LPW, though 130 LPW is nothing to shake a stick at. Also to be taken into consideration is that COBs are naturally wide angle emitters. The datasheets for a particular emitter will have an angle -vs- light intensity chart that can help in planning emitter spacing.
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poor boy
Village Idiot
Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 16,230
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
#771711 - 03/11/15 08:19 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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i suggest a 24" T5 lighting...
oh shit! im selling a t5 fixture.
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Learning to love life by living through loss and mistakes
Lessons learned then gradually surfacing, Letting go, stripping naked to scream
I am not perfect nor do I strive to be, I am alive in this world of face first falls and public breakdowns
I'm a retarded, disfigured clown
Dying to be heard through the simple art of letting this heavy wall finally fall
I'm an equal being of no race, or color, a hallucination if you will
Sneaking into the lives of strangers, and letting them fall apart to a new rhythm just to feel better
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Rockahaus
No Till Newbie
Registered: 02/27/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
#771712 - 03/11/15 08:20 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is a lot to consider. I'm broke, so I don't want to spend a lot of money, but I know I need to if I want good yields though. I'm going to start checking out the Cree lights now.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rockahaus]
#771728 - 03/12/15 12:34 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rockahaus said:
There is a lot to consider. I'm broke, so I don't want to spend a lot of money, but I know I need to if I want good yields though. I'm going to start checking out the Cree lights now.
You're hurting for money and you don't want to spend a lot of cash LED's are the way of the future but still aren't close to being ready to take over HID lights yet.
Why aren't you using HID lights till you can afford decent LED lights? I mean you're talking about making a system and crap wiring this and that.
Quote:
Hello everyone. I have grown a couple of times with some T5's,cheap nutes, and miracle grow soil,
You kept it simple before why not now?
Half the time you see post on youtube showing "this yadda yadda yadda light out does a 600 watt HPS and then there are a ton of post saying they are full of shit or you find out that the post was put up by the light maker and made to look like a review. (This trick is huge with the LED guys)
I want to see a nice simple LED set up that can do this
  
Over (well over) 4 lbs in a 4x8 space. I want to see LED's do it. Dense bud even at the bottom.
Hell I'd be even happy to see them do this
I'm not trying to knock LED light but the name of this thread should be How to make setting up a garden a complete pain in the ass.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
 Join us at the Growery!
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
#771730 - 03/12/15 02:13 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ignorance is bliss.. I love how HPS growers go around pretending you can't get dense bud with LED. 
Lets see some side by sides of an HPS beating LED in THC and terpene production
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Rahz
Stranger
Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 22
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
#771732 - 03/12/15 02:26 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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There are a lot of shoddy companies out there but DIY avoids that along with the premiums that come from buying from a company that sells quality products. As I said, 1.35 GWP from a 350 watt lamp in a 2x4 tent equals your 4 lbs in a 4x8. That I don't have pics might bother you, but 140 LPW is 140 LPW and can be verified by looking at the datasheets for the emitters I used. There's a bit of a learning curve in understanding them, but it's not that difficult. I'm driving the Vero 29s at 700mA.
For non-typical currents the datasheets have charts, one showing current -vs- voltage. It can be used to find the voltage for a particular current. Voltage X current = watts. Another chart shows luminous flux (lumens) as a percentage of the standard currents output -vs- current. Standard output X (percentage) = lumens @ your chosen drive current. Standard output X (the percentage) / watts = LPW.
http://www.bridgelux.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/DS33%C2%A0Bridgelux-Vero%C2%A029%C2%A0LED-Array-Data-Sheet%C2%A02014.02.03.pdf
Not having a lot of money to spend up front, a 600 or 1000 watt HPS might be the smart thing to do in a 4x4, but I do think a 600 watt DIY LED lamp in that space would pull 2 lbs. and as I mentioned and provided some details for, I could build that lamp for about $700.
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Rahz
Stranger
Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 22
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
#771733 - 03/12/15 02:38 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've heard Apache Tech is the bomb, but $2500 for the lamp? 
How about DIY for $700? Or $1800 for the fanless version. I actually have two fanless lamps now, the 350 and a 720 watt I first built. 17Oz and 28Oz last two harvests. Almost 3 lbs. from 1070 watts.
And yea, I make left hand finger hash handling stems. 
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: phychotron]
#771734 - 03/12/15 04:02 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
phychotron said:
Ignorance is bliss.. I love how HPS growers go around pretending you can't get dense bud with LED.
Lets see some side by sides of an HPS beating LED in THC and terpene production
lol.....I've seen this exact load of bullshit before and when tested between many strains the results went back and fourth between the types of lights and you know it. You just tried to pull a fast one on me.
I don't want to see grow shop or light company videos
and any light can grow dense nugs if the plants are short and they must have been cause this guy only got 677 grams from a 1000watt light.
I put up a pic in this post of a plant that had well over 200 grams dry on it and there were 6 under 1 1000 watt light (I've done 8 before). Show me some real growers is what I'm saying.
And you also know that UV light is the big thing with terpene production. The guy should use a bulb that probably wasn't made for street lights and use a grow bulb with a little uv added and going by his yield some added blue light.
Show me some real gardens. Some real growers not bullshit tents in bedrooms. Show me one guy who went to the store bought a LED light went home and had killer production and no problems.
Like I said I think LED is the way of the future and it will be used by everybody but right now it's a expensive clown show. I'm also not saying there isn't killer LED lights out there but going just by what you say over and over and over and over again there few and far between. (I actually base the little I know about these lights on your posts)
and Tron can you answer me a question. (I'm not being a smart ass either)
What is it about those damn LED's that overheats? I thought one of the big selling points is that they don't give off heat. My friend had a panel go out for the 1000th time and he fucking lost it and gave me all this LED stuff I have sitting right here but it's a few years old. I got a bunch (and I mean a bunch) of these UFO's that my fly traps seem to love but these lights that are on panels he says suck cause of heat or something so I've never got around to using those.
Now I have a huge interest in these lights but I go by what I see with my eyes not videos by fuck knows who. I come from a area that well over 75% of the population is growers. The drug stores sell bud trimmers. I've seen a ton of grows go from HID to LED only to go back again. I've also seen LED guys go to HID and they almost never go back to the LED's.
Now Harry was suppose to set me up with some big ole monster wattage LEDs that he works with and was convinced would change my mind but he went and vanished on us.
P.S. Are us two and Stone the only mods now?
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
#771735 - 03/12/15 04:09 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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I didn't realize it was that expensive and at that price I'd start to build my own.
With home made LED it seems like the best idea is to invest in a good/oversize heat sink and tap it out to receive certain size diodes, like the 20mm MCPCB some diodes are mounted on. Then as time goes on you can just unscrew and replace with newer diodes and drivers as technology improves. Once you understand the basics of driving the diodes you should be able to replace and upgrade relatively easily. But the part that should never break or need replacing would be the heat sink. I think passive cooling is the way to go, but its not cost effective for companies to sell you that huge of a block of aluminum, not in today's disposable society.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
#771736 - 03/12/15 04:27 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've tried to explain the heat concept before, but here goes:
Infra red light, emitted in excess by an HID bulb, shines on every surface and is absorbed by everything it touches, as heat. It cannot be cooled before it strikes a surface, it must hit the plant, be absorbed as heat, then shed into the air. Your HID bulbs require a cooler air temperature for plants because it needs to drive heat from hot(plant) to cold(air) via temperature differential. I'm sure you understand that the larger the difference, the faster the rate.
That IR radiation is also hitting every surface that receives light, tent, equipment, etc. which needs to be cooled to keep the air cool. IR is also hitting your thc molecules. notice the HPS has a higher delta-9 (activated) THC %.
With LED the heat is absorbed into a heat sink then transferred to the air and vented out the top. If you leave it sealed in a tent that shit will heat up, no doubt. But considerably less than a sealed HID tent. I thought my friends HID tent was hot, then I realized his ballast was outside the tent and hot as fuck as well. LED's just don't get the equipment itself that hot.
If your LED fixtures don't have an adequate heat sink they're going to run the diodes too hot and burn up. Its like my CPU. I had an OEM intel heat sink on my i5 quad core-- encoding an album to MP3's would heat my CPU up to 99C and shut down. Got a new cooler and can't get that bitch past 50C no matter what I do.
Do any of those UFO's have a finned aluminum heat sink or just a flat shit sheet?
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
Edited by phychotron (03/12/15 04:30 AM)
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Magash]
#771737 - 03/12/15 04:40 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here's a larger comparison using the style light I imagine when building an LED.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Rockahaus
No Till Newbie
Registered: 02/27/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Best LED light for 4x4 tent [Re: Rahz]
#771741 - 03/12/15 06:29 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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The main reason for going with LED is I'm a disabled vet on disability and have a fixed income. I have to keep my monthly bills low. My electric bill gets up to $250 - $300 a month just running A/C in the summer not growing anything. Between the watts HPS pull and the added A/C needed, it would just cost to much month to month. At this moment, I'm getting paid to go to school, and I'm using that money to pay for the light and all the other equipment I need while I have extra monthly income. Just got my tent yesterday, so I'm going to start some seeds soon.
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