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 TomCollins
Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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 Re: unstable pH  [Re: hamloaf]
#690224 - 10/22/13 05:56 PM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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I definitely don't have phycho's expertise and knowledge, and sorry if I sound like a fool I'm very stoned atm... but I have the same exact thing you do when using just plain water and have experienced this as well with the Hydroponics of Holland 3-part. I've dealt with this issue during all 3 of my grows, two of which were flood and drain like yours, the other was hempy (which is a bit like a manual flood and drain.)
There is nothing wrong with my water. LOTS of growers in my area...I live in the 'Dam and I talk shop with the guys from the Dampkring pretty frequently and we've talked about the water here in the municipality... Magash might know those Kiwis... anyway these PH slides aren't unusual here.
From my understanding, this isn't a bad thing necessarily..... it's advantageous in fact if you control it carefully.
As you can see from the chart, there is no PH level for hydroponics where all nutrients are available, but there is a significantly large interval in which cannabis can uptake most of the nutrients it needs. So in my opinion, a PH slide of some type in hydroponic applications is very beneficial. Why would it not be?
What I always do when I fill up a fresh 100ltr tank, I bring the PH down pretty close to 5.5, with the expectation it will become 10x more alkaline within the next 12 hours. I readjust 3-4 times in a 72 hour period, and then it will become stable. This process of recalibrating will bring your EC up slightly.
With the hempys, I would do the same thing, except I would collect the runoff and recalibrate it and then re-water the plant until the runoff was the same PH as the water I was pouring in. This was done every other day - granted with fresh water each time, which is why this was a recursive process from beginning to end.
There are certain nutrient brands out there that have some added ph buffering qualities. At the moment I'm using PH-Perfect 3-Part from Advanced Nutrients. Using this, my PH stays very stable from the first time I calibrate it... however, when I use overdrive with the stack, it stays stable for a week and then I get PH slides down! This is easy to deal with as I just add a few jugs of fresh unph'd water and then every other day I throw in a jug with nutes mixed into it.
So if I were you, I'd take advantage of these slides - I believe if you recalibrate several times over a day or two, and your water will become stable.
So yo could try it.
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TomCollins
Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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Re: unstable pH [Re: TomCollins]
#690225 - 10/22/13 06:06 PM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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As I side note... I've created some functions that can, now, predict fairly accurately the rate of change, and how much buffer is needed to adjust it. It may pay to do something similar. I might be able to help.
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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.
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KaptKid
Spaced Pirate
 
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 5,615
Loc: Bright Side of the Sun
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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 Re: unstable pH [Re: phychotron]
#690228 - 10/22/13 06:44 PM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'll have to try some of this cal/mag.
Not realy wanting to do the RO water thing but may have to.
Thanks everyone will look more into this.
And just to let you know the pH went to 8 at 24 hour reading.
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Child of the 60's, Tripping ever sence.
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 phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly) 
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Re: unstable pH [Re: KaptKid]
#690279 - 10/23/13 12:26 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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So basically the way pH works is that it is your "potential Hydrogen" when water is sitting by itself, it is not just H2O, but H2O and a small percentage of charged H+ and OH-. by adding salts (ions, or joined molecules with an extra or missing an electron, so that you have a balance of +'s and -'s forming a solid; table salt is NA+ and CL-) you change the energy level and break apart more of those water molecules, and you have H+ an OH-. Those are both floating around no longer as water, but as some bad ass molecules that want to get their charge balanced. This is the basic concept of inertia, the storing and transfer of energy, its just stored in the bonds of the molecules.
Now Calcium/Magnesium come along, both able to go to 2+ electrons in their ionic form, making them able to grab onto a bunch of molecules (but not forming a solid because the energy level of the water) and prevent them from getting huge spikes of free H+'s and OH-'s. Cal/mg are both big fat molecules, which make them able to stave off change, and Hydrogen is the lightest easiest to move around molecule, imagine a big fat guy fighting a bunch of midgets. Eventually he'd be taken if you had enough fast enough, but he'd hold his own for awhile.
Its been awhile since chemistry, but thats the gist of it. Its actually pretty complex and takes awhile to fully grasp. One of the millions of amazing properties of water. pH is the struggle of all the individual molecule's trying to reach equilibrium--always perusing equilibrium.
You might be able to let the water sit for a few days and see if that helps stabilize it before using it. If its changing by itself out the tap then it should equalize eventually. I guess dissolved gases that are leaving the water. Dissolved gases like CO2 makes it water more acidic, some people even have natural gas in their water.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
 Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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KaptKid
Spaced Pirate
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 5,615
Loc: Bright Side of the Sun
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: unstable pH [Re: phychotron]
#690353 - 10/23/13 06:15 PM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks
I've talked to another local hydro grower( no longer active) And he too said cal/mag is the way to go.
Hopefully the new hydro store has it but no problem if it does not, free shipping on the internet right now.
On a side note, out of every thing I read about pH , nothing ever talked how long it should stay stable.
At least now I have a clue.
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Child of the 60's, Tripping ever sence.
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KaptKid
Spaced Pirate
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 5,615
Loc: Bright Side of the Sun
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: unstable pH [Re: KaptKid]
#692875 - 11/09/13 09:21 PM (11 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just wanted to add
I set up a 30 gal res to watch tap water. When left to stand for a week, with air stone in it, pH rose to 8.
Took it down to a 6 and 3 days later it has risen to a 7.
Did us 10 gals to replace res after 3 weeks.
The roots on the large plant are growing out of the bottom of the pot.
Have added this thread to my grow log.
Will update this as I go.
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Child of the 60's, Tripping ever sence.
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: unstable pH [Re: KaptKid]
#692884 - 11/09/13 10:33 PM (11 years, 1 month ago) |
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Is it getting any better?
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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KaptKid
Spaced Pirate
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 5,615
Loc: Bright Side of the Sun
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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No, I need to get some cal/mag to see if that will help.
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Child of the 60's, Tripping ever sence.
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: unstable pH [Re: KaptKid] 1
#692907 - 11/10/13 04:27 AM (11 years, 1 month ago) |
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Your bubbling air through your water, that will change your pH as you dissolve various gases into the water. You can also pump bacteria directly into your nutrients this way as well. When I was considering Canna I got into a huge conversation with the customer service guy and he said that Canna holds up well and doesn't need too much agitation(its true), but the air-stone will definitely mess things up with the pH. Should I absolutely have to have something, get a waterfall pump that comes on for a minute or two every few hours.
I tried adding a waterfall pump but it was not worth the cleaning effort, it eventually gets covered in salts and for Canna its not required. Thats one of the things I love about Canna is that after four weeks of just topping off my tank there was only mild scum coating the tank that washes right off with a nylon brush, whereas with Advanced Nutrients in the past would leave me crusty after a few days and needing to put in effort to scrub all the crap off. Thats in a non-recirculating standing nutrient tank.
Try it without the air stone and see what happens.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: unstable pH [Re: phychotron] 1
#692948 - 11/10/13 01:09 PM (11 years, 1 month ago) |
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Lets do some experiments to get to the bottom of all this.
Set up 4 gallons of tap water. Label them: Tap, Tap-AIR, Nute, Nute-AIR.
Without pH adjust
Two plain tap water-one with an air stone, one without. LOG their pH over a few days (every few hours if possible, all at the same time for better analysis).
Same with the nutrients. Mix the two gallons together so that they equalize, not just two separately mixed gallons with different concentrations. Then after a few days turn off the air stones and see what happens compared to the non-air.
Repeat but with the pH adjusted from the beginning, so you might need 8 gallons and more air stones or do it again in a few days. And when you get the Cal-Mg you can try a similar experiment to watch it in action.
The idea is to get some graphs of the pH over time and also to compare to the direct effect of the air stone. Keep good records, try and take readings at set intervals like every 8 hours so you can sleep and still not effect the time-scale of the graph.
Heres an example of how much easier it is to read the data in graph form.
I did that little experiment in response to someone on youtube who compared two pH- products but didn't compare strengths, only that they were both pH down. As you can see Advanced Nutrients pH- works much quicker than the Gen. Hydro pH-. You can tell with the blink of an eye, but with numbers you have to mentally consider how they compare to one another.
Notice that Time in your case will be the bottom axis, so make sure to note the time and date, and maybe now its clear why you would want consistently timed readings. If you have excel (google doc's has a free spreadsheet program that lets you share with anyone) it would be best, then I could make the graphs and we'll see what happens.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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KaptKid
Spaced Pirate
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 5,615
Loc: Bright Side of the Sun
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Ok, I'll start looking into this.
Money is tight but as always I'll find away.
Thanks
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Child of the 60's, Tripping ever sence.
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phychotron
Medicated
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 1,995
Loc: Earth (mostly)
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Re: unstable pH [Re: KaptKid]
#693674 - 11/14/13 04:23 PM (11 years, 1 month ago) |
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you really don't have to unless you really want to get to the bottom of it. Try the calmag and see if that fixes it.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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KaptKid
Spaced Pirate
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 5,615
Loc: Bright Side of the Sun
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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I have also found some well water.
Am going to ck that out too.
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Child of the 60's, Tripping ever sence.
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