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 SmokeSomeHash
Littlest pee pee on da block
Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 1,555
Loc: murica 
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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 Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days.  [Re: TomCollins]
#683833 - 08/30/13 07:30 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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As i also mentioned...some people over fill their rez and go weeks between changes.
Quote:
DonkeyDong69 said:
I'm under the impression that with a DWC, you don't necessarily have to change your water until your final flush given you keep topping it with a balanced nutrient solution that keeps the water at the same concentration. I don't see why you couldn't do the same with any recirculating system.
Thats where i got the impression. That makes it seem like you wont even empty and refill between veg and bloom.
I get where youre coming with biofilters and what not...trust me...ive seen a 5 acre aquaponic set up thats fully organic and waters crystal clear and near zero ppms.
But why do you want to filter your plant excrements? Filters like that are more for organic matter that can cause bacterias and algaes. They use em with fish to filter all the stuff the plant doesnt use...but theyre also getting constant new nutrients as the fish poop all day long so the idea of over filtration isnt really a problem.
I highly doubt youre keeping your res topped off with a steady flow of nutes all day every day so those filters may be filtering out the bad toxic plant excrements but depending what brand of nutes youre using it may be filtering out stuff you want. Regardless... youre still gonna reach a point where the filters need to be rinsed and the reservoir changed.
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SmokeSomeHash
Littlest pee pee on da block
Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 1,555
Loc: murica
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: SmokeSomeHash]
#683835 - 08/30/13 08:28 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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I also do not know which nutrients you are using.
If you are using something like the 3 part flora series that is fully synthetic than a biofilter like that might help you out because you dont want any organic shit or pathogens floating around your water.
If youre using an organic based nutrient such as the fox farm tiger bloom though youre just filtering out the fertilizer you paid for...which is a waste of money.
If you look at the links you sent me, most of those biofilters are used in set ups that grow small plants such as leafy greens. These plants usually grow for shorts amounts of time and need basic nutrients like a 10-10-10. They dont bloom so they just give em nitrogen to grow em for a few weeks.
Which leads me to point out why those filters are such an important part of an AQUAPONIC system. In aquaponics you need all kinds of biofilters because youre dealing with organic wastes and LOTS of BAD BACTERIAS. Just look what happens to a fisk tank without a filter...they turn all green and nasty and shit...well same thing in your reservoir. Obviously with live fish its not as intense, but the principle is the same.
There is not one way to do that, and filters like that have a very important place in hydroponics...but plants are living things and they can grow in some seriously fucked up conditions...cuz they adapt and learn to thrive. So as to how often to change your reservoir...dont be all anal about it...just make sure to do it before its too late...but again...depends on what youre putting in it.
If youre using any type of organic nutrients I would ditch all the filters and just be clean...or try out aquaponics.
Didnt mean to come off as an ass earlier
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TomCollins
Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 10 months, 24 days
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: SmokeSomeHash]
#683957 - 09/01/13 04:39 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SmokeSomeHash said:
As i also mentioned...some people over fill their rez and go weeks between changes.
Quote:
DonkeyDong69 said:
I'm under the impression that with a DWC, you don't necessarily have to change your water until your final flush given you keep topping it with a balanced nutrient solution that keeps the water at the same concentration. I don't see why you couldn't do the same with any recirculating system.
Thats where i got the impression. That makes it seem like you won't even empty and refill between veg and bloom.
With such knowledge, I question the frequency of changes, absolutely. I completely understand the advantages of having a fresh tank for the plants; what I don't fully understand are the disadvantages, given the right conditions, of not having one.
Quote:
SmokeSomeHash said:
I get where youre coming with biofilters and what not...trust me...ive seen a 5 acre aquaponic set up thats fully organic and waters crystal clear and near zero ppms.
But why do you want to filter your plant excrements? Filters like that are more for organic matter that can cause bacterias and algaes. They use em with fish to filter all the stuff the plant doesnt use...but theyre also getting constant new nutrients as the fish poop all day long so the idea of over filtration isnt really a problem.
I highly doubt youre keeping your res topped off with a steady flow of nutes all day every day so those filters may be filtering out the bad toxic plant excrements but depending what brand of nutes youre using it may be filtering out stuff you want. Regardless... youre still gonna reach a point where the filters need to be rinsed and the reservoir changed.
Quote:
SmokeSomeHash said:
I also do not know which nutrients you are using.
If you are using something like the 3 part flora series that is fully synthetic than a biofilter like that might help you out because you dont want any organic shit or pathogens floating around your water.
If youre using an organic based nutrient such as the fox farm tiger bloom though youre just filtering out the fertilizer you paid for...which is a waste of money.
If you look at the links you sent me, most of those biofilters are used in set ups that grow small plants such as leafy greens. These plants usually grow for shorts amounts of time and need basic nutrients like a 10-10-10. They dont bloom so they just give em nitrogen to grow em for a few weeks.
Which leads me to point out why those filters are such an important part of an AQUAPONIC system. In aquaponics you need all kinds of biofilters because youre dealing with organic wastes and LOTS of BAD BACTERIAS. Just look what happens to a fisk tank without a filter...they turn all green and nasty and shit...well same thing in your reservoir. Obviously with live fish its not as intense, but the principle is the same.
There is not one way to do that, and filters like that have a very important place in hydroponics...but plants are living things and they can grow in some seriously fucked up conditions...cuz they adapt and learn to thrive. So as to how often to change your reservoir...dont be all anal about it...just make sure to do it before its too late...but again...depends on what youre putting in it.
If youre using any type of organic nutrients I would ditch all the filters and just be clean...or try out aquaponics.
Didnt mean to come off as an ass earlier
I think it's beneficial to filter the excrements, as well as other pathogens and organic debris in the water, with a biofiler, because it makes more nutrients available and it helps keep the plant root zones very clean. To me it seems like the beneficial bacteria cultures feed off of the things that end hurting the plant in the long run, and help you get more out of your nutrient solution.
You're right I don't top off daily, but about once a week. I've been refilling once every 3 weeks or so. I'm using AN's 3-Part PH-Perfect stack; nothing organic about it - the plants also sit in pure perlite.
I understand what aquaponics is and how it works to a general degree. I understand that there is an eco-system to manage in such setups, and hence why such filters play a vital role. My argument would be, the reservoir and root zones are going to become eco-systems whether you like it or not, with or without fish - I've heard of people dropping chemicals like bleach and chlorine into their water to keep mold and root pathogens at bay. If you really take control of such eco-systems, couldn't they begin to take care of themselves to various degrees? ie. recycling organic wastes in the water. What I'm controlling in my setup is the presence of the beneficial bacteria, whom primarily live in the biofilter where most of the organic debris collects, among other parameters.
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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.
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SmokeSomeHash
Littlest pee pee on da block
Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 1,555
Loc: murica
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: TomCollins]
#683962 - 09/01/13 08:14 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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Im not even gonna try to quote the part i need on my phone...
But with the full synthetic nutes youre using and pure perlite then yeah those filters make sense.
And the part about reservoirs becoming ecosystems and bacterias feeding off bad stuff...youre spot on with that too.
I just wanted to hear youre using full synthetic and not using fox farms or general organics. I noticed those filters are made by general hydro, and i would assume theyre meant to be used with the flora series or something similar that is fully synthetic...they dont sell those here in the states.
Now that you have given more details about your nutrients...i too am a bit curious to see if those filters can let you go longer between changes.
Sorry for the rants earlier...i just figured with all that biofilter stuff you were one of those die hard organics dudes.
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 Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: SmokeSomeHash]
#683969 - 09/01/13 11:22 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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You guys are looking at this the wrong way. Your plants use different amounts of nutrients at different times. If all you do is continue to top off with extra nutrient water, you are going to have higher levels of certain nutrients than others. The longer you go, the worse this becomes.
Changing out your reservoir on a regular basis helps you keep a balanced NPK ratio, as well as the micro-nutrients. This in turn will help keep your plants healthier and in the end a bigger yield, with a better end product.
These filters are not going to address this issue.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Fucking what the fuck.
Every week top off the res. Once every two weeks change it. That's all there is to it. Why all the trouble to make things a pain in the ass to save what amounts to pennies. (Myself I go with large reservoirs so I can get away with a change every 3 to 4 weeks if I need to). Now the bio-filter thing is interesting and if your wanting to go organic to help save the world then that's awesome but if your doing it cause you think the taste or smell or whatever is better then your dead wrong.
Interesting subject just seems like a way to make a easy way to grow a pain in the ass.
By the way the only Fox Farm nutrient that is organic is the Big Bloom. Grow Big and Tiger Bloom are not organic.
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TomCollins
Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 10 months, 24 days
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: Magash]
#684025 - 09/02/13 10:58 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hawksapprentice said:
You guys are looking at this the wrong way. Your plants use different amounts of nutrients at different times. If all you do is continue to top off with extra nutrient water, you are going to have higher levels of certain nutrients than others. The longer you go, the worse this becomes.
Changing out your reservoir on a regular basis helps you keep a balanced NPK ratio, as well as the micro-nutrients. This in turn will help keep your plants healthier and in the end a bigger yield, with a better end product.
These filters are not going to address this issue.
That makes perfect sense. But generally, do certain (any?) nutrients become unavailable or out competed or something because of this after about a week? Aren't fertilizer formulas mixed and calibrated to take this issue into account?
Quote:
Magash said:
Fucking what the fuck.
Every week top off the res. Once every two weeks change it. That's all there is to it. Why all the trouble to make things a pain in the ass to save what amounts to pennies. (Myself I go with large reservoirs so I can get away with a change every 3 to 4 weeks if I need to). Now the bio-filter thing is interesting and if your wanting to go organic to help save the world then that's awesome but if your doing it cause you think the taste or smell or whatever is better then your dead wrong.
Interesting subject just seems like a way to make a easy way to grow a pain in the ass.
By the way the only Fox Farm nutrient that is organic is the Big Bloom. Grow Big and Tiger Bloom are not organic.
It's a relatively large reservoir for the grow space. The biofilter is there to maintain health, not merely limited to the longevity of the nutrient solution. It's there to keep things clean pretty much - by effect making use of organic debris collected over time.
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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: TomCollins]
#684026 - 09/02/13 11:04 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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A week or two and you'll be fine. But if I remember correctly, your res. really isn't that big, so I wouldn't go over 2 weeks.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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SmokeSomeHash
Littlest pee pee on da block
Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 1,555
Loc: murica
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: Magash]
#684068 - 09/03/13 12:43 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
By the way the only Fox Farm nutrient that is organic is the Big Bloom. Grow Big and Tiger Bloom are not organic.
The grow big and tiger are mainly synthetic but they also have organic stuff such as earthworm castings.
Wouldnt that be filtered out by the filter?
And yeah i just top off with plain water and change every week or two...just trying to put in my 2 cents...but i agree that the filter adds complexity where it is not needed
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TomCollins
Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 10 months, 24 days
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: SmokeSomeHash]
#684077 - 09/03/13 02:53 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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So of course, it's best to swap everything out as often as possible - but it sounds like, at least once every two weeks, given adequate management of nutrient solution and root grow zones.
Topping off with clean PH'd water seems like the best thing to do - this helps keep the EC on the low side.
I guess it's difficult to say exactly what the effects of something like a biofilter and/or water cooler are on longevity of the solution. The health indications from the plants and the water seem positive (@ 13 days now without change and 1 top off.)
Quote:
SmokeSomeHash said:
The grow big and tiger are mainly synthetic but they also have organic stuff such as earthworm castings.
Wouldnt that be filtered out by the filter?
I don't think so. The Subculture bacterias are beneficial bacterias that can be used with any type of grow (soil, organic or hydro). However, if you're using something like coco or soil they say the biofilter is unnecessary, because the bacteria have no difficulty reproducing in such conditions. The biofilter creates an environment for the bacteria to reproduce in hydro setups, where it could otherwise not survive alone.
So it's not the filter, filtering out anything organic. The filter is just collecting decomposing organic matter and debris in the nutrient solution; the bacteria live in the filter, and that's where they eat and decompose the debris. The product of this is a "supplement of mineral salts readily available to the plants."link This might unintentionally give rise to other organisms in the water - but I think the primary action of filtration is the diet of pythium, fusarium, and verticillium. So even if these guys were eating organic properties of organic nutrients, wouldn't the product be more readily available mineral salts? I know this could also throw off the NPK ratio (which could be an argument for longevity in fact), but how destructive could it otherwise be with organic setups?
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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.
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SmokeSomeHash
Littlest pee pee on da block
Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 1,555
Loc: murica
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: TomCollins]
#684085 - 09/03/13 09:04 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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I dunno man iust try it and find out i guess.
As for water chillers...they can help you a lot but not with the EC.
Theres a commercial hydroponic iceburg lettuce farm in south texas where they grow in greenhouses under the sun but the water is cold to the touch.
Even though the temps get high enough to cause bolting, the low root zone temps keep the plant nice and healthy through extreme heat with no bolting.
Lettuce is a very heat intolerant crop and without the water chiller they wouldnt grow. In normal temps one may not be necessary but on either side of the extreme a water chiller, or reservoir heater can be a great help.
I would assume bacterias would grow slower in colder water similar to how refridgerating food works but i dunno...
Just set up all your stuff and do a grow log!
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TomCollins
Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 10 months, 24 days
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: SmokeSomeHash]
#684087 - 09/03/13 10:09 AM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SmokeSomeHash said:
I dunno man iust try it and find out i guess.
As for water chillers...they can help you a lot but not with the EC.
Theres a commercial hydroponic iceburg lettuce farm in south texas where they grow in greenhouses under the sun but the water is cold to the touch.
Even though the temps get high enough to cause bolting, the low root zone temps keep the plant nice and healthy through extreme heat with no bolting.
Lettuce is a very heat intolerant crop and without the water chiller they wouldnt grow. In normal temps one may not be necessary but on either side of the extreme a water chiller, or reservoir heater can be a great help.
I would assume bacterias would grow slower in colder water similar to how refridgerating food works but i dunno...
Well, I know that the biofilter is advertised as something that can compensate for high environmental temperatures. This image is from the biofilter product page.
They're basically saying "look how high temperatures can get - and they're still alive!" I understand a lot of root pathogens grow at higher temperatures and the subculture fights this, but high temperatures aren't really a problem in my setup. So I question whether the culture actually has that much benefit... and if anything it's probably very sluggish because of the temperature as you said, and perhaps also finding it difficult to survive because of that.
Quote:
SmokeSomeHash said:
Just set up all your stuff and do a grow log!
Yessir! My grow log. I'll get an update in there probably tomorrow.
Here's some photos of the irrigation.
      
 
In total: 3 separate pumps, 1 airstone & 1 air pump, 500ltr Aquarium Chiller, 1 inline screen filter, a bio-filter with live culture and a cascade. Tank capacity: 100ltr. Overkill? 
Here's what's going on above:
   
Aside from heat stress near the light (working on getting a better fan) they seem to be doing ok..
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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.
Edited by TomCollins (09/03/13 10:29 AM)
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SmokeSomeHash
Littlest pee pee on da block
Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 1,555
Loc: murica
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: TomCollins]
#684122 - 09/03/13 05:40 PM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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General hydro doesnt even have that product on the american side.
You euros are so concerned with the environment its crazy.
I think its way overkill...but maybe im just a behind the times american 
Looks cool though!
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TomCollins
Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 10 months, 24 days
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Re: Significant rise in EC over 4 days. [Re: SmokeSomeHash]
#684147 - 09/03/13 07:36 PM (11 years, 2 months ago) |
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The American website has a variation of subculture. I wonder why the U.S. site doesn't sell these filters. I mean, you can build one yourself for probably less than what I paid for mine - just get some wood planks, nails, glue, pond liner, a small water pump. Seems like something that would sell? Perhaps this is an opportunity to monopolize this niche market before GH does...
I can tell you that when I've gone into the reservoir with a sponge in between switches for cleaning, there has never been anything to clean.
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andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.
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