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 zzzzzz
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Registered: 02/18/13
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 Seventh week into flower 
#662811 - 03/18/13 09:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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1. Are you growing from seed or clones? $50/qtr and $100/qtr. bag seed
2. How old are your plants? 11-12 weels
3. How tall are your plants? 1.5-3ft
4. What size containers are they planted in? 4-4.5 gal
5. What is your soil mix? Fresh MG/Spent MG with additives
6. How often do you water and what type of water do you use and how much you give per watering? I water when bucket is light. Early this was once a week or more. Now, it's just about every 3 days Tap water
7. What is the pH of your water? mid 7s
8. What kind of fertilizer do you use and what is its NPK ratio? MG Bloom Booster 15-30-15
9. Do you foliar feed or spray your plants with anything? No
10. What kind of lights do you use and how many watts combined? 22x32W T8 (704W); half 6500k, half 3000K
11. How close are your lights to the plants? Nearly touching as much as possible
12. What size is your grow space in square feet? Pretty much 4x4ft but slightly expandable in one direction
13. What is the temperature and humidity in your grow space? typically mid-70's and 30-45% It was 39% today
14. What is the pH of the soil? runoff mid 6s
15. Have you noticed any insect activity in your grow space? fungus flies
16. How much experience do you have growing? second grow, but have some gardening experience and scientific knowledge
More details of the grow found here: http://www.growery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/659526
If you understand my grow, you'll see how I wanted to experiment with the MG. Three of the buckets have spent MG from the last grow with 25% home-grown worm castings, extra perlite, and dolomite, and they're doing fine. The MG bucket, on the other hand is showing the following symptom (see pic.). This has been going on a couple weeks now and getting a little worse. It's effecting the huge sativa-ish looking plant (please see last page of my grow log). It is effecting leaves half or more way up.
I didn't give any nutrients at all during the veg, only straight tap water that "cured" (out-gassed) between waterings. At the time of flowering, I started adding Bloom Booster every other watering at recommended dosage, to all buckets. I gave everybody nutrients this last watering except MG, thinking perhaps it was nute burn. Runoff from MG bucket is in mid-6 pH.
I also gave everyone 1/2 tsp epsom a couple waterings back.
I doubt the conditions are perfect for any of the plants, as there's so much diversity in there.
So, what do you think?
Edited by zzzzzz (03/19/13 04:32 PM)
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zzzzzz
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#662864 - 03/19/13 04:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey! Where's the love?
Watered today with water only. I must say that there is also some leaves on the affected plant that have tips curling under.
I am disappointed with this forum. What's the point of signing up if there isn't any participation? I could read anything from anywhere on the web if all I wanted was a one-sided relationship. 
Please don't tell me to look at the pictures or read. I've done that. Obviously I haven't found the answer I need.
Thanks.
Edited by zzzzzz (03/19/13 04:35 PM)
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zzzzzz
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#662890 - 03/20/13 01:02 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bottom of this page shows a leaf that resembles mine but worse.
http://www.mandalaseeds.com/Guides/Marijuana-Nutrient-Problems
I'm starting to think multi-nutrient lockout from over-fert.
Flush? Judging by the phenotype of this plant and its development I'd say it has several more weeks of flower (just starting week 7).
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PoloDown
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#662907 - 03/20/13 11:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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zzzzzz
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: PoloDown]
#662910 - 03/20/13 12:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ok, but only the MG bucket? Why would that be? It got a shot of dolomite too in the beginning, like the other buckets.
I was under the understanding that runoff pH was a better indicator of what's happening than water going in. IOW, if my runoff is in the correct range, how can my water be off?
Thanks.
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PoloDown
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#662911 - 03/20/13 12:55 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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from my experience of using MG, I could never keep a consistent ph level AND when i didnt ph my water I had severe lock out.
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zzzzzz
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: PoloDown]
#662920 - 03/20/13 04:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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PoloDown, did you dolomite your MG?
So, would the Ca deficiency be caused by nutrient lockout due to high EC? I don't have a meter. My tap water is about 0.44 EC. Ferts on top of MG maybe too much? Note the other plants in different soil had same feeding and no such symptoms.
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 Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#662931 - 03/20/13 06:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzzzzz said:
PoloDown, did you dolomite your MG?
So, would the Ca deficiency be caused by nutrient lockout due to high EC? I don't have a meter. My tap water is about 0.44 EC. Ferts on top of MG maybe too much? Note the other plants in different soil had same feeding and no such symptoms.
Well it seem like you should already know the answer to this if you've read even an 1.8th of the threads on this site. MG SUCKS ASS!!! It's been said time and again.
You're pH is too high. You know the EC of the tap water but don't have a meter? That's confusing.
Also you have multiple different phenos if you are growing from seed. Different phenos are going to have different requirements and can be more or less sensitive to nutrients. This is something that must be taken into consideration.
And yes, this is a small site. I personally was out camping at some hot springs, not everyone can be on here a lot. So when we can help, we are always willing to.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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zzzzzz
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Quote:
hawksapprentice said:
Well it seem like you should already know the answer to this if you've read even an 1.8th of the threads on this site. MG SUCKS ASS!!! It's been said time and again.
You're pH is too high. You know the EC of the tap water but don't have a meter? That's confusing.
Also you have multiple different phenos if you are growing from seed. Different phenos are going to have different requirements and can be more or less sensitive to nutrients. This is something that must be taken into consideration.
And yes, this is a small site. I personally was out camping at some hot springs, not everyone can be on here a lot. So when we can help, we are always willing to.
Ha-ha! I suppose you might be right, Hawk. I have read so many of these threads here, elsewhere. There's even people that swear by it, and even the folks at Mandala Seeds say it's as good as anything.
Regarding the various phenos, yes, I considered that but wasn't prepared to deal with it (newbie).
How do I know the EC? Well, I extrapolated from a lab reading that a local home brewer got (Wards Labs). It also gave the pH at 6.6. This pretty closely agrees with my cheap pH strips. Strangely, also, my runoffs are also in that range. So I don't see how this is a pH issue. Could you explain please? I suppose it could be my crappy resources preventing me from accurately measuring ....
But the proof is in the pudding. I still think I probably have nute lockout right now in that bucket because of potentially too high EC from fertilizing in combination with the pre-fertilized soil. OTOH, it's been in that soil for 12 weeks.
All that aside, what should I try to do to remedy it? I have been giving it only plain water the last 3 waterings. Judging by the flower progression and phenotype, it seems awful Sativa to me, and it might need to go several more weeks, so I think it's worth fixing now if I can.
No problems with the plants in the other soil!
Thanks for you help Hawk!
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#662950 - 03/20/13 07:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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You said the pH of your water was mid 7s, not 6.5. that's what you said the runoff was.
And you said you gave it water only, but did you flush it?
And by MG you mean Miracle Grow right?
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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zzzzzz
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Quote:
hawksapprentice said:
You said the pH of your water was mid 7s, not 6.5. that's what you said the runoff was.
And you said you gave it water only, but did you flush it?
And by MG you mean Miracle Grow right?
Right. I can't fully commit as I really believe my pH paper is good to +/- 1, so I'm inclined to believe the Wards Lab number. Wouldn't you? It's the same water. Without accurate measuring capability I think it's wiser to defer to that.
I have not flushed it. I have recently read that this is not exactly a good idea in soil grows especially this far into flower. I take it your view is different? 
BTW, I'm aware of your rabid anti-MG stance (and yes, I mean Miracle Grow Potting Soil), and I don't mind at all, but I wanted to give it a little go to compare with the other soil I have going now, perhaps just BECAUSE of all the different views I've read. Now's the time to stretch my wings a little bit, right ... maverick it a little and learn the ropes while the investment is small? Or, perhaps, BECAUSE the investment is small?
Waiting on your input. If it was just up to me I'd keep giving it straight water with sufficient runoff and see if it improves. I'm worried about shocking it mid-flower with a flush. Overall, the plant does not look exactly sickly yet. Let's say we caught it pretty early. I have a feeling you're going to suggest a flush ....
Thanks again for your help. I question to question and learn, not to challenge.
I'm in the middle of splitting my worm composts into more bins. Them little buggers reproduce like crazy!
Edited by zzzzzz (03/20/13 08:27 PM)
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#662963 - 03/20/13 08:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Flushing does NOT shock your plants. I flush mid grow just to make sure I don't get excess salt build up. It doesn't shock anything.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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zzzzzz
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Well, I get into trouble when I read stuff like this:
http://www.mandalaseeds.com/FAQ#IN14
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#662970 - 03/20/13 09:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Don't pay attention to seed companies man. Sure if you know exactly what you're doing, and know exactly what the plants you grow want and when they want it you can get away with not flushing. But you don't really know what you're doing, nor are dealing with a strain you've grown a lot.
And shit like this is shameful
"Flushing your soil prior to harvest does NOT improve aroma and taste of the buds. It DOES increase chances of getting bud mold within 48 hours and can easily lead to other fungal infections which threaten your crop."
BULLSHIT. I've done side by side comparisons with my plants. Same strain. Same everything up until the flush. And I will never not flush again.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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PoloDown
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I will never not flush as well.
God I've been ashamed by some of my unflushed plants, it's straight gross to smoke.
Listen to hawk man
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budgrowerwannabe
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: PoloDown]
#663068 - 03/21/13 11:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Anyone ever here of ClearX for flushing Im going to try it this round?
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PoloDown
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ive heard of it, never looked into it. i just flush with straight water
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Hawksresurrection
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: PoloDown]
#663075 - 03/21/13 12:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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It works. But using a low dose of nutrients will work just as well.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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zzzzzz
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Quote:
hawksapprentice said:
Don't pay attention to seed companies man. Sure if you know exactly what you're doing, and know exactly what the plants you grow want and when they want it you can get away with not flushing. But you don't really know what you're doing, nor are dealing with a strain you've grown a lot.
And shit like this is shameful
"Flushing your soil prior to harvest does NOT improve aroma and taste of the buds. It DOES increase chances of getting bud mold within 48 hours and can easily lead to other fungal infections which threaten your crop."
BULLSHIT. I've done side by side comparisons with my plants. Same strain. Same everything up until the flush. And I will never not flush again.
Hawk, when you "did not flush" did you also stop fertilizing? Those guys at Mandala aren't even feeding those plants beyond initial soil composition, but letting them use up all the nutrients in the soil instead heavy feeding schedules and flushing. Their recommendation, if the plant needs nutrients, is that you need more soil. Sounds reasonable if not totally practicable. FWIW, both methods would achieve, in my mind, the same purpose of depleting nutrients from the soil and causing the plant to utilize tissue reserves.
But I have to wonder ... it seems, to a newbie such as me, that the breeder ought to know what works, if anyone. I mean, they're growing shitloads of plants, right? They claim to do it as they describe and not have issues. Aren't they doing something right?
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 13,464
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#663099 - 03/21/13 02:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, but if you want to push your plants to their maximum potential, you are going to feed them ferts during the grow.
Composing your soil to the extent that it has EVERYTHING it needs for the entire grow is extremely difficult. Especially for newbs.
And yes I did use just plain water without the flush, stop fertilizing. I prefer the flush because it expedites the clearing time.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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zzzzzz
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So here's some more thoughts (cut and pasted from my journal):
... if I recall, the last grow had these problems too. All pots then were MG. But it was complicated by a) red spider mites, b) no additional fertilizers to speak of (as opposed to this grow), and c) some neglect, so I'm not sure a direct comparison is possible, though it does seem like it's related based on symptoms and that both were MG.
The MG bucket, this time, also got dolomite but nothing else until I started giving MG Bloom Booster at flowering, every other watering along with all the rest of the buckets.
The other plant in that MG pot is STARTING to show similar signs.
All three other buckets are filled with SPENT MG from the last (4 month)grow, plus 25% worm castings and dolomite. None of them are showing any signs of nutrient/health issues EXCEPT for the other big sativa-looking girl, who is showing a LITTLE bit of the same. It might not be worth correcting this one, I dunno ....
So, I get you want me to flush, Hawk, and I'll be glad to give that a go but what do you think is the diagnosis? I was giving half concentration MG Bloom Booster at half strength every other watering (so nutes once a week), and starting EC (I presume) for the water is about 0.44. I'm not sure it's calcium deficiency. There ought to be enough present but perhaps it's locked out? Do you still think I need to adjust pH?
Here's a couple pictures of pH testing I did today.
a) tap water
b) other four bucket's runoff (water only)
Edit: come to think of it, as I look at all those together, the runoff looks a little acidic, eh?
Edited by zzzzzz (03/21/13 10:06 PM)
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Hawksresurrection
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#663152 - 03/21/13 10:55 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well I never claimed it was Calcium. That's not so common indoors.
Is this only affecting the lower leaves of the plant? Middle leaves of the plant? Is it spreading? How many of the leaves is it affecting.
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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zzzzzz
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Quote:
hawksapprentice said:
Well I never claimed it was Calcium. That's not so common indoors.
Is this only affecting the lower leaves of the plant? Middle leaves of the plant? Is it spreading? How many of the leaves is it affecting.
PoloDown suggested that.
It started showing well into flowering, so from mids up. Old leaves (lower third) are good. New leaves look healthy but start showing spotting and progresses from minor spots to yellow spots to brown spots. The picture in my OP on this topic shows it (some are worse than this now).
It's pretty much of the leaves. No dead leaves yet but it'll happen, I suspect. There's also crispy tips and cat-claw (?), or "clawed", undercurled leaf ends.
Here's a couple pictures from today. Sorry for missing better detail. Please refer also to the OP.
Most of this is the plant in question. The other plant in the bucket is a 1/4 the size of the big girl.
Edited by zzzzzz (03/21/13 11:29 PM)
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zzzzzz
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#663161 - 03/21/13 11:54 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Based on a review of my photo collection, it seems I noticed the symptoms about March 10. Here's a good photo from then.
Edit: to make it easier to see the progression I just post both photos here. They are from the same plant, a week apart. There are some worse ones.
Edited by zzzzzz (03/22/13 05:10 AM)
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budgrowerwannabe
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#663225 - 03/22/13 05:24 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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That is defiantly getting worse! So whats the final diagnoses?
Edited by budgrowerwannabe (03/22/13 05:34 PM)
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Hawksresurrection
Registered: 12/04/08
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I'm sticking with that they need to be flushed, and that you just have a sensitive strain.
--------------------
Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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zzzzzz
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How do those runoff pH readings look to you?
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Hawksresurrection
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#663276 - 03/23/13 02:41 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fine. pH in soil doesn't have to be exact. I've known people to never pH and they dont have issues. Maybe they're luck, I dunno. I personally just try and get it close
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Dude she isn't as young as she use to be.
-niteowl
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budgrowerwannabe
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#663282 - 03/23/13 05:49 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzzzzz said:
How do those runoff pH readings look to you?
Fuck them strips! what you have to let them dry out too read ?
Most growers i know use pens ! I have a cheaper one but it works on the money.
I checked it, cal. it. Easy to use. I should be a sales man.  nan
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zzzzzz
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Quote:
budgrowerwannabe said:
Quote:
zzzzzz said:
How do those runoff pH readings look to you?
Fuck them strips! what you have to let them dry out too read ?
Most growers i know use pens ! I have a cheaper one but it works on the money.
I checked it, cal. it. Easy to use. I should be a sales man. nan
I don't know, Wannabe. I'm willing to bet those strips are as accurate as a "cheap" pH pen. But you should define to me what you mean by "cheap". You can also check those strips against known solutions to "calibrate" your reading of them. I did this, of course.
Way back in the day, in college chemistry and other science laboratories, we used pH paper. We didn't have fancy electronic meters (well, maybe the prof's did for their own use).
Notice the tap water measurement roughly matches the results of local water from a professional lab. Not to say a high quality pH meter wouldn't be nice to accurately measure +/- 0.1 or so ....
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budgrowerwannabe
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#663333 - 03/23/13 06:20 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think i might be colored blind! maybe thats y i dont like them.
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zzzzzz
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Well, I suppose this will have to remain a mystery. No time to realize a recovery because they're all coming down! Harvest time!
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budgrowerwannabe
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Re: Seventh week into flower [Re: zzzzzz]
#663513 - 03/25/13 02:31 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hope they smoke and taste good for you! Let me know you said you didnt flush?
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zzzzzz
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Flushed but only two days ago! LOL!
They have received water only the last two weeks though ....
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