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 kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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 Re: The World According To Monsanto  [Re: OoBYCoO]
#617354 - 04/10/12 12:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
OoBYCoO said:
That question has been answered many times in the articles and documentaries already posted in this thread.
well, I clearly have missed it. So why not offer a short and concise explanation here?
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 DeadHearts
Registered: 03/12/10
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: kyuzo]
#617357 - 04/10/12 12:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
kyuzo said:
Quote:
OoBYCoO said:
That question has been answered many times in the articles and documentaries already posted in this thread.
well, I clearly have missed it. So why not offer a short and concise explanation here?
He gave you an example above. Why dont do some of your own research. That is
of course if you care at all about the harms of such crops.
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DeadHearts
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617359 - 04/10/12 12:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The fact that they have put patents on seeds is outrageous and not only that
but ferociously defending their patents and suing local organic farmers. They
are being allowed to completely dominate the market while providing a product
that is dangerous in many ways.
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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Posts: 981
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: OoBYCoO]
#617360 - 04/10/12 12:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
OoBYCoO said:
Not to mention what monocultures, which is what these GM crops are, in general do to soil. http://www.helium.com/items/1851230-the-effects-of-corn-monocultures-on-the-soil
an issue with monoculture would be an issue with monculture, Not GM crops
Quote:
OoBYCoO said:Basic example... corn normally releases hormones in the soil to attract nematodes (which attack the parasites) when their roots are being attacked by parasites that bore into the roots, lay larvae that eat them and kill the plant. Studies show that the GM corn has lost that ability leading to more use of pesticides/herbicides to be used which in turn ruins the soil b/c of the chemicals involved.
IIRC they go over this here
actually briefly researching the topic, it seems the issue is added genetic material meant to resist boring pests (bt), and that some suspected these effects would extend to related taxa that were beneficial to development ( there was mention of lab research that supported this, but I could not track down the studies)
though a brief search on google scholer seem to undermine this ( at least from my reading)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/f2190368xnvn04k4/
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.ento.50.071803.130352
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1603/0046-225X-32.4.859
But this is all moot, because regardless if the bt corn did have a negative effect, or not, the issue rises from a specifically spliced gene, intended to specifically control soil born pests (possibly extending it's negative effects onto related animals that are, in fact, beneficial), not a general issue with the gm process itself, as was originally asserted
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617361 - 04/10/12 12:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DeadHearts said:
Quote:
kyuzo said:
Quote:
OoBYCoO said:
That question has been answered many times in the articles and documentaries already posted in this thread.
well, I clearly have missed it. So why not offer a short and concise explanation here?
He gave you an example above. Why dont do some of your own research. That is
of course if you care at all about the harms of such crops.
Yes, after his original remarks, which you even took issue with
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DeadHearts
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: kyuzo]
#617370 - 04/10/12 01:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Its troublesome that it seems there is so called evidence on both sides either
for or against GM foods in a wide verity of aspects. But none the less here
is some information that suggests GM foods in relation to soil is not so good.
"Research has demonstrated the great importance of soil organisms for the fertility of the soil. In one gram of productive soil there is a complex web that can exceed over 100 million microorganisms that may represent over 1000 species. The main components are bacteria, fungi, algae, protozoa, nematodes, earthworms, and insects. Out of these, bacteria and fungi constitute about 80%, the proportions of these two depending on soil type. There is a complex ecological interdependence between all soil organisms. Together they are responsible for the cycle of decomposing and restructuring organic material so that it will be accessible to growing plants. It is also responsible for the nitrogen and water-retaining properties as well as for other factors of great importance for soil fertility."
Potential effects of Genetically Engineered (GE) crops on soil microbes
In genetic engineering, a package of novel genes are inserted into the recipient organism. In addition to the desired property gene, a number of other genes have to be added to ensure successful insertion.
Among the potentially problematic genes inserted into plants, those that help overcome the barriers against the introduction of foreign genes are of particular interest in the context of soil ecology. They function as vectors for successful insertion and prevent rejection of inserted foreign genes. These vector packages are chimaeric combinations of genetic elements commonly from pathogenic bacteria and viruses and from transposons.
Ho, M.W. & Tappeser, B. (1997) have proposed that the vector DNA in GE crops may promote horizontal transfer of genetic material between unrelated bacterial species. They warned that the result may be new human pathogenic bacteria.
This idea was further developed by Ho, M.W. et al. (1998). They refer to experimental observations indicating the possibility of gene transfer not only between related bacteria but also between bacteria of different species, as well as between bacteria and fungi and between bacteria and higher organisms, including mammals. They warn that the vector DNA may be transferred from GE plants to soil bacteria and soil fungi and contribute to increased horizontal transfer. They suggest that this may have contributed to the emergence of new human pathogenic bacteria during the last 10-15 years, some of which have been very harmful.
Hypothesis
Horizontal transfer of genes between soil micro-organisms may be facilitated by vector DNA from genetically engineered plants, resulting in such changes or disturbances in the functioning of the micro-organisms that soil ecology and fertility may be affected.
http://www.psrast.org/soilecolart.htm
Robert Kremer, a microbiologist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Agricultural Research Service, co-authored one of the five papers and offered insight into their premise during an interview with The Organic & Non-GMO Report, a monthly newsletter that offers recourse in addressing the challenges of fighting GM foods.
Despite claims to the contrary, Roundup can deeply penetrate soil and threaten groundwater supplies with contamination. Depending on a particular soil's composition, glyphosate can leech rather quickly into soil and potentially run off into nearby streams and rivers.
The Roundup system has also caused a significant increase in aggressive "super" weeds that are resistant to glyphosate. These weeds have been popping up in fields all over the country where GM Roundup Ready crops are grown, growing increasingly more virulent every year. Genetic engineers continue to develop stronger herbicides to combat them but the weeds keep getting stronger and more resistant.
Genetic modification of food crops is not only unsustainable but it threatens to unhinge the entire agricultural system. Roundup and other herbicides are altering and destroying soil nutrients, beneficial microbes, and other delicate components necessary to grow food.
While many farmers are interested in moving away from using GM crops in favor of more organic methods, it is often difficult for many of them to make the conversion.
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/028347_GM_crops_Roundup.html#ixzz1rfQJ5OGN
Edited by DeadHearts (04/10/12 01:38 PM)
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617380 - 04/10/12 02:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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you really should try to rely on peer-reviewed articles when discussing this topic, since there is such an ideological undercurrent to how people view it
take for example the the conclusion of the article that "Genetic modification of food crops is not only unsustainable but it threatens to unhinge the entire agricultural system. Roundup and other herbicides are altering and destroying soil nutrients, beneficial microbes, and other delicate components necessary to grow food."
when the research actually indicates that "We previously reported that fungal colonization of GR soybean roots increased significantly after application of glyphosate but not after conventional postemergence herbicides. Because glyphosate may be released into soil from GR roots, we characterized the response of rhizosphere fungi and bacteria to root exudates from GR and non-GR (Williams 82; W82) cultivars treated with and without glyphosate at field application rates. Using an immunoassay technique, glyphosate at concentrations >1000 ng plant-1 were detected in exudates of hydroponically grown GR soybean at 16 days post-glyphosate application. Glyphosate also increased carbohydrate and amino acid contents in root exudates in both soybean cultivars. However, GR soybean released higher carbohydrate and amino acid contents in root exudates than W82 soybean without glyphosate treatment. In vitro bioassays showed that glyphosate in the exudates stimulated growth of selected rhizosphere fungi, possibly by providing a selective C and N source combined with the high levels of soluble carbohydrates and amino acids associated with glyphosate treatment of the soybean plants. Increased fungal populations that develop under glyphosate treatment of GR soybean may adversely affect plant growth and biological processes in the soil and rhizosphere."
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03067310500273146
An issue that specifically deals with the use of round-up, and how round-up resistant plants deal with the compound
Again, this speaks to a specific issue, with a specific modification, not the technique in general. Also, I'm not sure you would find many, if any, scientists who would claim gm is safe in all instances. Which is the point you seem to keep trying to argue (basically you are making a straw man).
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DeadHearts
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: kyuzo]
#617395 - 04/10/12 03:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Im arguing that GM food crops are in general not good for the soils. You are
focusing on but one persons findings and one aspect of the effects of GM out of
hundreds.
From what I have researched over time it is no coincidence that most people
have many problems with Monsanto and GM foods and crops and rightfully so.
What exactly is your point? What are you trying to argue?
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DeadHearts
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617396 - 04/10/12 03:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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From the same "Pier reviewed" site you got the information from above that seems
to contradict the findings of Robert Kremera, Nathan Meansb & Sujung Kimc from said
article.
"Species, varieties and area of Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) transgenic crops have increased rapidly worldwide in the past 11 years (1996–2006) for economic, environmental and health benefits. However, the ecological risks of Bt transgenic crops were critically highlighted for potential adverse effects on agroecosystems, in particular, non-target effects on soil microorganisms. Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) are important soil microorganisms providing a range of benefits to the majority of crop plants in the agroecosystem, worthy of monitoring for non-target effects of Bt transgenic crops. Bt transgenic crops may affect AMF in many ways during their life with regard to the temporal-spatial relevance between the occurrence of Bt proteins and fungal symbiotic development of AMF. This may lead to an unwelcome surprise with regard to specific abundance and diversity of AMF when Bt transgenic crops are planted continuously. It is concluded that interactions between AMF and Bt transgenic crops at individual and community level are a new urgent soil ecological issue. Some evidence about Bt transgenic crop effects on AMF revealed by recent articles are summarized, and research prospects are highlighted in the paper."
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09064710701478339
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DeadHearts
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617397 - 04/10/12 03:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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This can go on and on and on.
My stance on the matter is that corporations like Monsanto are not needed and cause
way more harm than good in many ways. I wonder why Europe has almost completely rid
itself of said GM crops...
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
Registered: 07/05/10
Posts: 981
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617398 - 04/10/12 03:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DeadHearts said:
Im arguing that GM food crops are in general not good for the soils. You are
focusing on but one persons findings and one aspect of the effects of GM out of
hundreds.
No, I'm pointing out the evidence you guys keep citing speaks to specific incidents, and not gms in general (both examples were brought up by people trying to characterize GMs as generally dangerous, not me). And then pointing out this is no way supports the previous claim
Quote:
DeadHearts said:From what I have researched over time it is no coincidence that most people
have many problems with Monsanto and GM foods and crops and rightfully so.
I'm not a particular fan of Monsanto's businesses practices myself, but recognize that how they run their business has no bearing on the techniques, and ideas, behind gm crops.
PS coincidentally, a bunch of people liking, or not liking, something doesn't really speak to the validity of that belief (slavery wasn't morally right simply because a bunch of people agreed with it)
Quote:
DeadHearts said:What exactly is your point? What are you trying to argue?
that the attempts to cite specific issues, with specific gene splices, does not prove that the practice, in general, is harmful to the soil
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617399 - 04/10/12 04:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DeadHearts said:
From the same "Pier reviewed" site you got the information from above that seems
to contradict the findings of Robert Kremera, Nathan Meansb & Sujung Kimc from said
article.
"Species, varieties and area of Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) transgenic crops have increased rapidly worldwide in the past 11 years (1996–2006) for economic, environmental and health benefits. However, the ecological risks of Bt transgenic crops were critically highlighted for potential adverse effects on agroecosystems, in particular, non-target effects on soil microorganisms. Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) are important soil microorganisms providing a range of benefits to the majority of crop plants in the agroecosystem, worthy of monitoring for non-target effects of Bt transgenic crops. Bt transgenic crops may affect AMF in many ways during their life with regard to the temporal-spatial relevance between the occurrence of Bt proteins and fungal symbiotic development of AMF. This may lead to an unwelcome surprise with regard to specific abundance and diversity of AMF when Bt transgenic crops are planted continuously. It is concluded that interactions between AMF and Bt transgenic crops at individual and community level are a new urgent soil ecological issue. Some evidence about Bt transgenic crop effects on AMF revealed by recent articles are summarized, and research prospects are highlighted in the paper."
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09064710701478339
You do realize that scientific research often comes to contradictory conclusions? Hence why I wrote "( there was mention of lab research that supported this, but I could not track down the studies)" even indicating I came across mention of contradictory research. So really have no idea what issue you are trying to raise here
But thanks for using peer-reviewed sources
PS not to mention we would still be dealing with a specific splice, concerning a specific gene, as opposed to the practice itself
Edited by kyuzo (04/10/12 04:05 PM)
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617400 - 04/10/12 04:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DeadHearts said:
This can go on and on and on.
My stance on the matter is that corporations like Monsanto are not needed and cause
way more harm than good in many ways. I wonder why Europe has almost completely rid
itself of said GM crops...
Europe also has some rather Draconian laws that drastically undermine free speech. But merely citing something being done in Europe doesn't actually articulate it's merits, if it has any
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DeadHearts
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: kyuzo]
#617401 - 04/10/12 04:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Again from what I have read over the years it seems there is more findings that
suggest more harm than any good in regards to soil. You cant pick and choose one fact here and there and act like nothing is going on.
I also do not agree with you on your point in which "but recognize that how they run their business has no bearing on the techniques, and ideas, behind gm crops."
Now I cannot prove this but I believe they started to GM seeds as a way to enforce
their patents on local growers as another way to undercut their business. Thats said, its a whole new thread.
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OoBYCoO
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: kyuzo]
#617402 - 04/10/12 04:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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And how many specific incidences/issues need to be cited before it proves that the practice, in general, is harmful to the soil?
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DeadHearts
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617403 - 04/10/12 04:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Again the overall message here is that Monsanto and GM food and crops are not
needed and cause much more harm than good IE individual health of eating said food
and the effects on the soil caused by GM crops and pesticides.
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: OoBYCoO]
#617404 - 04/10/12 04:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
OoBYCoO said:
And how many specific incidences/issues need to be cited before it proves that the practice, in general, is harmful to the soil?
when the practice actually has something to do with the specific practice, as opposed to the splicing of specific genes, for specific effects
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
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Posts: 981
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: DeadHearts]
#617405 - 04/10/12 04:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DeadHearts said:
Again from what I have read over the years it seems there is more findings that
suggest more harm than any good in regards to soil. You cant pick and choose one fact here and there and act like nothing is going on.
I'm not. I'm pointing out your evidence doesn't support your conclusion
Quote:
DeadHearts said:I also do not agree with you on your point in which "but recognize that how they run their business has no bearing on the techniques, and ideas, behind gm crops."
ok, why?
Quote:
DeadHearts said:Now I cannot prove this but I believe they started to GM seeds as a way to enforce
their patents on local growers as another way to undercut their business. Thats said, its a whole new thread.
that would speak to a business practice, not the gm process
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OoBYCoO
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: kyuzo]
#617406 - 04/10/12 04:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
kyuzo said:
Quote:
OoBYCoO said:
And how many specific incidences/issues need to be cited before it proves that the practice, in general, is harmful to the soil?
when the practice actually has something to do with the specific practice, as opposed to the splicing of specific genes, for specific effects
lol And what is the difference?
That IS the practice!
Edited by OoBYCoO (04/10/12 04:19 PM)
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DeadHearts
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Re: The World According To Monsanto [Re: kyuzo]
#617407 - 04/10/12 04:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Talk about straw man 
As dude said above how many negative findings have to be cited until you get the point?
Do you want mainstream media to come out and say they have proof that GM food and
crops have negative effects on people and land? Because thats not going to happen.
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