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 DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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 LST Review and Questions 
#351227 - 01/21/10 11:44 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have a couple questions about Low Stress Training. I thought this could also be a thread where everyone can share what they've been doing or have planned in the training department lately.
So I've been tying my plant down for most of it's life. Mainly just focusing on keeping everything low and allowing new growth to become the dominant tip, and then tying that down.
Now I'm about 2 or 3 weeks into flower and I'm still doing the same thing... basically causing my plant to grow more like a vine outward rather than up.
My question is, when is it time to stop training? When do I let it go free? Or should i just keep doing what I'm doing? Am I doing more harm than good by shifting auxins to less budtastic branches this late in the game?
I read this one training overview that was really intense involving releasing your plant during specific times like after a feeding etc. etc. but I can't find it anymore...
So you guys got any good guides? What kind of training is the Growery up to lately?
Also, I have read This Guide and it is pretty good. Just trying to expand on it a bit.
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 DrGreenThumb
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Phish Tour 
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 Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
#351231 - 01/21/10 11:59 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I was always under the impression that you stop training when you start flowering. However, I've seen a few grows where the plants continue to be trained a few weeks into flowering. I'm curious also.
I have 2 plants I'm LST'ing now. Basically working them around the pot and tying down directly to the rim of the pot. They've been growing since October and still have about another month to go before I can flower them. Here they are. The first one is one of them a few weeks ago right after I trained her.
 
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
#351234 - 01/21/10 12:44 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Beautiful man... I would've loved to get mine that size but I think some autoflowering genes snuck into my girl and she started budding on 24/0 so I had to flip her...
Here's a pic from just a second ago... I just tied her down like crazy last night when I was starting to wonder if I was doing more harm than good. My tentative plan is to give her a big feeding and totally untie to see what I end up with, and maybe go from there... Plan B is to go ahead and feed, untie, and then possibly retie but just to kind of space out my favorite budsites and wait till it stops stretching... Whaddaya think?
BTW, as you can see I use pipe cleaners... I happen to have a bunch and they're soft. I usually just make a hook on one end and get ahold of a branch, then pull it to where I want it towards the rim of the pot. Then I just bend the cleaner under the rim... I thought it was pretty clever.. I don't have to drill holes or anything. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
#351240 - 01/21/10 12:57 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Trained them 3 days ago. I swear by LST, just wonder why I didn't do it last run... 
 
Those little branches/soon to be tops were barely even existent a few days ago. I haven't checket yet for 24 hours but they are exploding really fast. I also gave them a full feeding yesterday so things should look good when I check them soon. Did I mention I FUCKING LOVE GARDENING?!?!
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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DrGreenThumb
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Phish Tour
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
#351243 - 01/21/10 01:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Wow Dude, that's not a bad LST for an autoflower. Personally, I'm not sure what to think. I definitely wouldn't untie and then retie though.
My question (to someone with a knowledge about LST) is "are you supposed to UNTIE when you start flowering?"
I also want to know the answer to your question. "Is it beneficial to continue tying down after flowering has started." I have yet to find DEFINITIVE answers to these questions.
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
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FurrowedBrow
Free yourself from yourself
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 12,045
Loc: Carpal Tunnel
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
#351259 - 01/21/10 01:39 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sometimes training a plant in flowering is the best alternative to letting the buds burn by the lights. Regarding your question about whether to untie or not during flowering, i say it depends on a lot of factors. If you untie the plants, will they go into an undesirable position? What's the harm in leaving them? Here's something that's kind of interesting. I trained a few plants from around flowering start that as the stem grew it grew around the rope (hemp:) and was my largest yielder.
I think the questions that you asked in the last post are really questions you have to ask yourself. How does this strain typically react to lst? Lots of things to consider in training your plants.
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
#351263 - 01/21/10 01:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Are you supposed to untie? No, they will slowly start to get taller and out of control if you do. You could near the end of flowering but there is no benefit to it.
Is it beneficial after flowering has begun? Yes. Not so much for creating more budsites or changing the growth pattern, but if you have a dense Indica like I do that is nearly done, some of the large branches should be pulled slightly away from the main stem, outward in a 360 degree circle from the stalk. This will allow more light penetration and will increase the surface area. The popcorn buds have more of a chance to fill in and catch up in maturity. Not to mention it's just MORE light that the plant can feed off of.
The undergrowth was dying on my plant because the vegetation was so thick and NO light was getting into the inner parts of the plant. Not a bad thing if your focus is the top buds, but I like to smoke ALL of my buds and try to get as high of a % of them to fatten up, instead of just the main nuggets.
The earlier you start your LST, the more it will have an effect on the plant's growth pattern. It's just a great method in general. I like topping but got sick of waiting for the plant to heal and reallocate it's resources before noticeable growth returned. With LST it's almost a seamless transition of growth hormones to the apical tip down to the auxiliary sites and I notice almost no delay in growth.  I hope this helps
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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DrGreenThumb
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Phish Tour
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: FurrowedBrow]
#351264 - 01/21/10 01:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Tell me about it. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with leaving them tied up. For me it's kinda like a Scrog where the pots' rim acts more like a screen.
Ya'll got me thinking now though. I planned on leaving both tied up but now I'm thinking about untying one when it's time to flower.
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
#351272 - 01/21/10 02:06 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I personally wouldn't.
That's when keeping them restrained is most important IMO.
They are going to stretch into undesirable positions in the first 3-4 weeks of flower.
What lighting system are you using? The stronger it is, the deeper it can penetrate and aggressive LST isn't as necessary as it is for me only using a 150. I have about a foot of "usuable/strong" lighting so I aim to keep them around 14-16 inches tall, but shaped like an upside down triangle to get the most coverage at an even canopy level.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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DrGreenThumb
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Phish Tour
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Inverted]
#351284 - 01/21/10 02:28 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm using a General Electric 400W vertical high-bay HPS. I will keep them tied down now that you mention it. No need to deviate from the preplanned path right? The ones I'm LST'ing are vegging under a 4' Overdriven shoplight.
I'd say that whether or not you top or train is dependent on what you are trying to achieve. The LST'ing started out as an experiment for me but now I couldn't imagine killing 2 beautiful ladies. Topping does slow the growth but my aim was to get two colas instead of one, thereby maximizing the use of the light at the top of the plant.
On a side note, in the past few weeks I've gotten some branches growing out of branches. They seem to form a small bud site and then the top of it turns brown and starts to shrivel. I'd cut them but there are so many I don't want to cause undue stress. Additionally, I can't stretch my branches outward because the canopy is so THICK that it wouldn't make a difference anyway. I already hacked off the lowest branches early in flowering.
Here's the setup. The ballast is above the reflector.
 
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
Edited by DrGreenThumb (01/21/10 02:53 PM)
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
#351370 - 01/21/10 03:39 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure I get way more tops if I LST than if I top. They aren't really that different, although I would say LST is much more effective at using as much light as possible with smaller amounts of plants or a small space. Topping basically just splits the growth of one plant into 2 smaller plants. They can still stretch out of control using topping. LST they aren't going anywhere...
The branches growing from branches is a good thing, those will all be nice buds. If they are dying you have a serious problem. From the looks of it your light is too close. You don't have what looks to be adequate ventilation to have them that close. Back the light off a few inches and report back. You will also be able to cover more area with the light a few inches further away.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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DrGreenThumb
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Phish Tour
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Inverted]
#351398 - 01/21/10 04:29 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I can imagine you get many more tops with LST but on the flipside they are not as big. I can't wait to flower them and see what I get. I just took these pics for this thread. As you can see on the right side of the pic it looks like the top. But it's not. That is actually the lowest branch on the plant! The second pic is where that branch comes off the main stem. The lowest branch on this plant is the thickest branch.
 
The branches from branches will not be buds AND there is no serious problem. The issue is that these branches are getting almost NO light because of the thick, dense canopy. Once the buds started fattening up they cut off light to the lowest parts of the plant. Even though the light is VERY close (the bottom of the bulb is 2 inches from the top of the center plant) the fan keeps it in check. The airflow blows through the cardboard barriers and up the corners. Canopy temps never get above 80 even when the heat is on. Most of the light is directed downward, thanks to the vertical orientation of the light and reflector, so raising it will not give me any more USABLE coverage.
I must keep the light this close to keep them from stretching too much. Additionally the bulb is of questionable age and I'm sure it's suffering from serious lumen degradation. Here's a pic of said branches. As you can see there are three of them in the pic. The other pic is of the canopy. It's a JUNGLE in there.
 
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
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Inverted
CNC Machinist/Greenthumb
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 9,953
Loc: North Star
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
#351412 - 01/21/10 05:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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You just took which pics, the first set or the 2nd?
I didn't know you had a bush like that, then yes they are dying because they don't get enough light. I didn't know you had vegged it for that long. How old is that plant and how long was it vegged for?
I was imagining a much younger smaller plant.
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Don't criticize what you can't understand
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DrGreenThumb
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Phish Tour
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Inverted]
#351420 - 01/21/10 05:22 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I just took the top pics. Those are still vegging under OD shop lights. They've been growing since October and still have about another month until I have the room to flower them. They're getting out of hand for my veg closet.
I took the first pic in the second set just to show you what I meant by branches from branches. Those are on day 37 of flowering.
The dying branches ARE NOT on the LST'd plant. Sorry if I confused you a little.
The vegging ones are LST'd the Flowering ones were topped.
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
Edited by DrGreenThumb (01/21/10 05:24 PM)
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Farmer Joe
Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 1,707
Loc: USA
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
#351808 - 01/22/10 09:15 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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This is LBH's 4-way Lst/Topping tutorial from grass city. It's a great step by step tek. I personally plan on using this on my clones in the spring. I read above where you guys had discussed which training technique would create more bud-sites. Shit... why not incorporate both? I don't have first hand experience, but it appears to be a viable method. Maybe some of you will find this of interest.
http://forum.grasscity.com/advanced-growing-techniques/438408-lbhs-4-way-lst-tutorial-w-topping-sub-tutorial.html
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"Marijuana may not be addictive, but growing it is" - ED Rosenthal
Maine Caregiver In 100% compliance with Maine state laws.
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DrGreenThumb
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Phish Tour
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Farmer Joe]
#351842 - 01/22/10 10:20 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Fucking aye right, thanks Joe! Awesome link. I've seen this done before 2-way over at ICmag and planned on trying it my next LST. Now I'm gonna try this instead. I figured on topping and tying the resulting two main branches opposite each other and letting the lower branches fill in the middle. This seems like a much better idea in that you don't have to go around the pot at all; just tie to the edges. Plus the first top is much earlier in veg.
I won't be able to try this until I flower the other two though. They're getting waaaay out of hand. As it is, I'm having trouble shutting the veg closet door without damaging them. Plus I'm running out of places to tie them down. Oh well, I'm not complaining. I can't wait to try this though. It should be fun.
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
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Farmer Joe
Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 1,707
Loc: USA
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DrGreenThumb]
#351883 - 01/22/10 12:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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No prob.
I thought it may be helpful. I am glad I came across it.
Good luck finishing those girls you posted! They look very nice.
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"Marijuana may not be addictive, but growing it is" - ED Rosenthal
Maine Caregiver In 100% compliance with Maine state laws.
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FurrowedBrow
Free yourself from yourself
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 12,045
Loc: Carpal Tunnel
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: Farmer Joe]
#351892 - 01/22/10 12:41 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Farmer Joe said:
This is LBH's 4-way Lst/Topping tutorial from grass city. It's a great step by step tek. I personally plan on using this on my clones in the spring. I read above where you guys had discussed which training technique would create more bud-sites. Shit... why not incorporate both? I don't have first hand experience, but it appears to be a viable method. Maybe some of you will find this of interest.
http://forum.grasscity.com/advanced-growing-techniques/438408-lbhs-4-way-lst-tutorial-w-topping-sub-tutorial.html
Nice link! he did a good job with that pictorial.
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DudeTron
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 407
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: FurrowedBrow]
#352047 - 01/22/10 06:39 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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That IS a nice tutorial...
He's actually got me thinking more about topping too...
Did you guys notice he continues to top throughout veg? That's something I haven't seen alot of.
Also, I think I've decided that you definitely spend extra time with a plant if you do alot of heavy training. It seems like the 8+ week veg should be expected before you've actually gotten much more out of your plant... After that I'm going to go ahead and say you start to get a giant fucking monster exponentially growing plant, the likes of which you probably wouldn't see with just a 10 week old untrained plant.
Anyone else think it was cool to be perpetual with an 8 week veg too?
So invereted, you think it could just be your genetics that don't like the topping or is it something that seems pretty consistent?
Oh, also; What are you guys thinking about the yield debate? Are we just making nugs look different in the end or are we really getting bonus buds? This was another one of my major questions... I haven't seen a ton of these bushes flower... We're not all gonna end up waist deep in popcorn are we?
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DrGreenThumb
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Phish Tour
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Re: LST Review and Questions [Re: DudeTron]
#352050 - 01/22/10 06:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm definitely going to top one to the MAX on the next round. I think perpetual topping with an 8-12 week veg would be killer.
Also, I DON'T think the pause in growth after topping has anything to do with genetics. Most likely has to do with the plant having to make more auxins in the new top branches before they start to take off.
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
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