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 Theman
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Registered: 10/06/16
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 Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment?  [Re: Magash]
#822419 - 01/06/17 10:47 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lol I am with ya magash;) haha hah but but I know stuff too..
I just want to make sure phytotron doesn't spread misinfo is all. So had to try and explain where the misleading claims come from...
Peace
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 Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,038
Loc: Southwestern US 
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Magash]
#822420 - 01/06/17 10:47 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mag and Psych are both correct to a point.
Sunshine, terpene production (THC being one of the many terpenes produced by cannabis) is a complex series of enzyme-mediated chemical reactions. Your initial rationale is partially correct, in that terpene production starts as a branch-off reaction from the utilization of fatty acids (one of the many storage mechanisms formed during times of excess photosynthesis). The key reason why your conclusions are not entirely correct is because the availability of fatty acid precursors (in a reasonably maintained growing environment) are not the rate-limiting compounds in the production of cannabinoids. Because the biosynthesis pathway involves many different enzymes, and because the plant itself doesn't die when the lights turn off (indicating that energy stores are not depleted during THC production), we can conclude that the enzymes necessary for THC production are the rate-limiting factors. Since production of enzymes are primarily influenced by the plant's genetics, it should logically follow that simply boosting CO2 in an otherwise well run grow-room would not significantly affect the THC content of the final product. In this situation, the only thing that would significantly affect the THC content would be to modify how the specific genes encoding for the associated enzymes are expressed, such that production of THC is maximized without consuming all fatty acids in the plant. This involves some form of genetic modification, or a crazy complex chemical treatment that is beyond the capabilities of the common grower. Therefore, excluding obvious neglect, genetics are by and large the primary factor in THC content of final product.
Psycho, there is some evidence that UVB exposure elicits an increase in THC production in the trichomes. I have read articles suggesting that some of the THC production pathway occurs on a "reaction surface" within the trichome head, and that UV plays a part in either the rate of an otherwise spontaneous reaction, or stimulates enhanced enzyme expression at the trichome (I honestly can't remember which one it is  ). Most HIDs supply a small but viable amount of UV to the plants, LEDs require more thought as to proper application of UV (too much UV can cause damage to the plant and/or degrade active terpenes in the final product. While it definitely is true that optimization of light spectrum will result in enhanced growth and THC content, the fact that good quality cannabis can be grown outdoors in Canada, the UK, the Netherlands, etc. indicates that minimum UV exposure limits are tiny or non-existent for the majority of THC production. I myself have grown very active product under blue/red LEDs with no UV supplementation. Since LEDs emit light based on a specific bandgap energy, one would not expect any significant UV output from either red or blue LEDs, and can thus conclude that UV serves as a THC enhancer under tightly controlled conditions, but is ultimately not necessary for THC production.
Sunshine, check out some of the info below regarding the basic reaction pathway for delta-9-THC and CBD from hexanoyl-CoA, and the abstract of a peer-reviewed article on the production of hexanoyl-CoA from fatty acid precursors, and this production mechanism's direct association with the host plant's genetics.
The hexanoyl-CoA precursor for cannabinoid biosynthesis is formed by an acyl-activating enzyme in Cannabis sativa trichomes.
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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Mof
Registered: 07/02/08
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Data]
#822422 - 01/07/17 01:05 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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u.v. radiation mess with genetics over millions of years
I'm sure it's doing something... at least maybe speeding up the white to brown pistol portion of it's growth cycle.
and it keeps the plant warm, perfect for making it breathe easier
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phychotron
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Mof]
#822429 - 01/07/17 04:47 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Its kind of a given that you'll never be able to push a plant beyond its genetic potential. If you do then you just inaccurately gauged its potential or you are dialing in the environment to reach that potential.
I'm not implying there is a linear relationship between UV and THC production, just that it plays a role in converting the molecule. Like everything else there's a sweet spot and too much of anything will damage it (nutrients, light, water, co2, etc).
Light comes in as specific quantized packets (photons) that are absorbed and interact with the molecule's steriochemistry based on that size/energy level of the photon. Nutrients are merely the building blocks to put in structure; it is the energy from the light that fuels the plant to assemble those molecules.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
 Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
Edited by phychotron (01/07/17 04:49 AM)
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phychotron
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: phychotron]
#822431 - 01/07/17 05:32 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe it is linear, according to this study. They supplemented a greenhouse with HPS and UV-B. They don't go into what happens when you over apply it though. No doubt more research is needed to verify and update the conclusions under a broader scope.
"In conclusion, the ^9-THC content in leaf and floral tissues of greenhouse grown drug-type C. sativa increased linearly with UV-B dose."
https://smartgrowtechnologies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/UVB-RADIATION.pdf
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Theman
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: phychotron]
#822453 - 01/07/17 01:31 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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But again.. the plants with more uvb are receiving MORE light not just uvb specifically. The lights were covered that would block light and uvb just were covered with acetate that allowed uvb to pass through.. ie plants received more par radiation and uvb. So of course they grew better linearly points to that fact. Better meaning higher thc. So ya we all know more light more potency...
Also as it was an old study. Could it be uvb just converted acid formk of thc and why they "saw" higher levels? This would explain why cbd was not effected aswell as it takes more energy to decarboxilated.... I could be wrong but back then cannabinoids were just discovered so could be why? As we know now the metabolic pathways and that cbd and thc come from same precursor.
The study wanted to show something difor then what we are looking at it for so again would be easy not to include the fact that MORE total par was relieved by the uvb plants....
Interesting discussion;)
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phychotron
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Theman]
#822464 - 01/07/17 05:29 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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They took two UVB tubs and wrapped them in either very thin Mylar to block the UV or another film to allow the UV to pass through. They tried to equalize the light source as much as possible with the difference being just the UV or not. But they both had a bulb of equal light output before the filter. The difference in PAR light you speak of is mostly all in the UV range. They were able to show that with the addition of just UVB that THC production was increased up to 48%. That's with a plain HPS and UV-filterd sunlight in a greenhouse. The study shows that not all light sources are created the same.
Your right that we need more research to test for other cannabinoids and their respoce and by what methods.
Cannabis studies are hard to come by and I'm surprised they did this back in the 80's. But because funding and permission is so hard to come by its hard to get anyone to be authorized to do studies of this nature. More often than not they can't get permission to do another study if its too closely related to something done prior. Or they like to force the researchers to study the effects of cannabis and how it compares to tobacco.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Theman
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: phychotron]
#822475 - 01/07/17 11:59 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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However if u look at materials it is more then uv that goes through the acetate. So no it wasn't just uvb as I said. Also mylar reflects(anything reflecting is gunna reduce total lights ALOT!, clear plastic that allows uvb let's more or less all light except other uv light as to isolate uvb) in fact they used it(mylar) to separate the rooms!! So as u see this study doesn't show what u think. And was set up for another purpose. Anyway keep repeating myself. Very simply a case of more light and hense the very linear production lol.aaanyway genetics....
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phychotron
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Theman]
#822477 - 01/08/17 04:39 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not all mylar is the same. Different types allow for varying degrees of transmission and reflection. Light goes through both the super thin mylar and acetate--both are essentially just a thin sheet of plastic with coating. UVB is either blocked or allowed to pass depending on that coating. Yes, there will be a difference in other light transmission, but not much.
http://usa.dupontteijinfilms.com/informationcenter/downloads/Optical_Properties.pdf
http://www.dupontteijinfilms.com/FilmEnterprise/Datasheet.asp?ID=268&Version=US
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Theman
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: phychotron]
#822481 - 01/08/17 11:59 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes obv didnt reflect all the light or that would be silly lol.
Once again, if u look at the mylar that actually "gets rid of" a decent amount of uvb NOT ir, it also block a substantial amount of other light. It only allows 25% of visible spectrum even if was the opposite and blocked only 25% that still is substantial dif in light, and I think we can agree a plant getting 1000w will be more potent then 1 with 700. (Actually closer to 300, but for argument to demonstrate how substantial)... so think this is definitely case closed for good now lol..
Edited by Theman (01/08/17 12:28 PM)
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phychotron
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Theman]
#822483 - 01/08/17 02:31 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you cared to look at the datasheet of the total light transmittance for type-S it is listed between 81-88% depending on its thickness. So if your just going to throw numbers from out of your ass then yes, this discussion really is closed. I cannot battle your ignorance. Please stop spreading misinformation.
And for the record, more wattage does not necessarily translate to a direct increase in THC. Can you show me some studies that give you a higher % of THC when going from a 400w to a 600w HPS? It should reflect a direct linear relationship, and a 48% increase like in the study.
Furthermore the bulbs they used were 40 watts each, so your looking at a difference that is very minimal with or without the light being absorbed by the film. Certainly not enough to offset the sun and the HPS so much that it produced up to 48% more THC with those few watts. That would be amazing.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Theman
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: phychotron]
#822484 - 01/08/17 04:41 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lol dude. Look at the graph.. there is a huge difference in total transmittance and transmittance of useful spectrum.. so if u care to look at the mylar that block uvb not ir or other frequencies. U will see very clearly that in the usable spectrum ie visible light spectrum.(ahh eureka right?) It transmits only 20-30% of the useful light. Lol u really try and dig deep but ur just proving ur self wrong. It's great. lol
And yes those are 40w lamps.. however if u cared to look they are tube florose. And I promise they used more then 1 of them lol. Good try tho.
And yes smoke an auto under CFL or 1000w hps. Ie popcorn nugs at bottom typically are more veg material and less trichs compared to top cola. Or is that so crazy wrong u need me to look something up for u?
Your Grasping at staws my man. All I wanted to do was call u out on posting incorrect information. Didn't call u ignorant and I thought name calling is forbidden? It's ok to admit ur wrong, makes look so much worse when ur wrong and post all the info take time to do that, which clearly says ur wrong.
Peace 
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Theman
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Theman]
#822485 - 01/08/17 04:47 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just to sum up, look at par frequ3ncies transmittance in the mylar that blocks most of the uvb.. it will become very clear. It has really nothing to do with total transmittance % which includes ir and higher non light frequencies.
And forgive my ignorance, but isn't ur whole premise that more light ie more uvb increases thc? Now ur asking me to find something that says that? But u would just say it's because it's more uvb right? And not because of increase par. Silly..
Also remember they didn't test trimmed buds but whole plants with leaves....so more light bigger nugs less leaves equals higher thc.. so many reasons why using that article for ur reasoning is erroneous.
Edited by Theman (01/08/17 05:04 PM)
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phychotron
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Theman] 2
#822494 - 01/08/17 08:46 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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The visible light transmittance is all upwards of 80 and 90% on the graph depending on the type of Mylar. It compares to glass. Your reading it wrong.
My point is that UV plays a role in THC production, not that more light gives you more bud and therefor a higher yield of THC can be obtained. Were talking about the weight ratios of THC to flower material.
CO2 will give you more bud and therefor you could conclude that you could produce more THC in a given time, but that's not the same as increasing the potency of the flowers that are there.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: phychotron]
#822498 - 01/09/17 01:49 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
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Theman
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Magash]
#822589 - 01/12/17 02:21 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Nope again look at the mylar that blocks uvb not ir... u will see only 20 30% transmittance ie blocks 70-80%...
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phychotron
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Theman]
#822591 - 01/12/17 04:52 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm done discussing this. The study is there if you want to read the results you can interpret them anyway you see fit.
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
Edited by phychotron (01/12/17 05:02 AM)
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Theman
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: phychotron]
#822629 - 01/14/17 08:34 AM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lol its OK to prove ur self wrong..
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phychotron
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: Theman]
#822637 - 01/14/17 01:31 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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Who's the bigger fool: the fool or the fool who continues to argue with him?
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Any help given is for educational purposes only. Its your responsibility not to break any applicable laws
Bamboo Bongs I make | Perfect Dry and Cure | Grapegod under LED
“Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune intoned in the distance by an invisible player.” ~ Albert Einstein
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Data
That Guy
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 4,038
Loc: Southwestern US
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Re: Any stats for THC yield increase per watt with CO2 enrichment? [Re: phychotron] 1
#822645 - 01/14/17 05:54 PM (7 years, 11 months ago) |
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“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” -NDT
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