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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Any one into Spider Man? Well guess what... [Re: Sham87] * 1
    #677908 - 07/14/13 03:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sham87 said:
I'm not a homophobe, I didn't think about it. To me it's like saying "a person" "A chick" "a dude" A anything. But think what you want.





Yeah but what you said is akin to "a black." Imagine if what you said was "They're trying to change spiderman into a black."

I think we wouldn't be actually have a discussion really.

I didn't know Magash was homophobic. Doesn't seem like a trait for someone who seems to love and respect all creatures.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

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OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Any one into Spider Man? Well guess what... [Re: Magash]
    #677917 - 07/14/13 06:06 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure if I walked up to different people an called them names, they would all act differently. Irregardless of race, sex or ethnicity - but that's not the point. The act of making a sweeping generalisation of entire demographics of people, in a derogatory tone is the same. Blacks, gays, woman and many more groups of people have suffered from the same treatment.

You're dichotomous approach to compassion and love has made me lose a lot of respect.

I would give my kidneys to a murderer, if I knew that one day they would once again walk the streets and be a productive citizens. If I knew that they could be changed, I would give everything just to part this earth knowing, that I made a difference. I changed someones life.

And why not? If someone is no longer a threat to society then why lock them up? Why keep 80 year old men who committed murders in their 20s locked up? What is the point?

It is never solely the fault of anyone for the situations they are in. That would assume that everyone has control over everything in their lives, and that just NOT TRUE AT ALL.

You don't know why that person is homeless. Maybe they're a rejected asylum seeking refugee, and the reasons for rejection are not always right or good. Maybe they're trapped in your country because they are stateless people who just wanted a chance.

If a person become a murderer or mentally ill, or a drug addict I think it's societies fault. Society has failed to use the potential of a human being. That's not to say people can't be fixed and they can't turn around.

Then what would you do? Send them to jail in your great state of JAILS!? Good, spend your money well locking up potential.

I say no one is inherently bad and everyone can change.

Your environment is what shapes you. You only reflect the complex society that you're exposed to.

You cannot love with hate so deep in your veins.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Any one into Spider Man? Well guess what... [Re: Magash]
    #677928 - 07/14/13 08:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Dearest Magash, I mean you no offense brother.

Quote:

Magash said:
Really? Try telling this line of utter bullshit to the family's of the people they killed. Try telling this line of total bullshit to the kid that didn't have a father or mother cause of it. Try telling this line of bullshit to the mother that didn't get to see their kid make something of their lives.




I would happily do that. There is nothing to redeemed from retribution. Nothing has ever come of retribution.

Quote:

Magash said:
Could care less. I'm out to help animals and don't give a shit if I'm respected or not.




I think you should try not to hurt others in the process.

Quote:

Magash said:
Yeah sure, good luck with that. Already been proven that the majority of people in jail come out and recommit crimes again. When you do it be sure to post a pic of you and your new friend with another pic of your surgery scar. At least I'm helping find homes and helping out homeless animals what are you doing (this is the part where you make up the good deeds your doing).




Yet, when people go to jail they lose many rights. It's more difficult to get a job. Society ostracises the ex-con. Maybe that's why?

Quote:

Magash said:
Ok, that is just swell. Only I never stated that, read the answers before posting. I said it's the fault of humans wether their fault or not. Then again if a person is in a bad situation cause of something that isn't their fault what they do about it and the decisions they make is.




For all events in life, I think it is hard to trace everything back to singular cause. Some people are simply unfortunate, and not because of their decisions or any others.

I think we should feel sorry for the unfortunate and help them help us. We can't help anything if not ourselves and each other.

Making the right decisions can be odiously difficult if there are not much opportunities and resources available.
Quote:

Magash said:
Utter bullshit and that answer is nothing but that. People are responsible for their own actions. Blaming society is a pitiful excuse at best. What a line of crap. Please explain to me how society makes somebody schizophrenic.




Poor diet? Bad living conditions? These are major contributing factors solely influenced by societies. The development of a society, and the unintended consequences of it's development, both socially and technologically no doubt have a huge influence on our behaviour. Surely you agree?

I think we are shaped by our societies profoundly. I think this highly influences are ideas of what is wrong or right, what is good or bad, what is attractive, what is tactful, etc.

Society is responsible for you in many ways: they try to make sure your kids go to school, that you are safe, that you're not burning, that you have roads to drive on, you know what a healthy diet is, they know where you are, that you don't become homeless, etc. etc.

I think it's societies responsibility to make sure all of it's citizens are productive and contributing members. Otherwise what's the purpose of society? What's the purpose of working together, if we're going to leave fallen soldiers behind?

Society has certainly had an influence on everyones decisions.

It's mindless to just let people rot and suffer and then say they made bad decisions. It costs less to rehabilitate people and then to employ them.

It's not about passing the blame. It's about working together - it's about compassion. You can't always make the best decisions with whatever limited knowledge you have - it takes a life time of experience to begin to make good informed decisions.

If we take every opportunity to try to blame a cause of a hole in the road, you may make it to the end, but you'll miss the journey.

You can't blame a child for making a bad decision childish decision. I think it's also hard to blame an adult for making a bad adult decision.

Quote:

Magash said:
Thank you for proving my point. As I said they are on the street cause of their own actions or the actions of others either way the problem is caused by humans which is what I said. Your reading is as bad as my writing.




I must have missed your point.

Some of the things I said in my post were just supportive examples and other annotations. It's not because I'm misreading what you said. :tongue:

Quote:

Magash said:
Where exactly did I state this? More bullshit. In fact where exactly did I say anybody should be locked up? Please show me. I also never said they shouldn't be helped what I said is I don't feel for them so show me where I stated anything other then that.




What I'm asking is, "what do you do with these misforunates who have made poor choises? Send them to jail to punish them in the land of jails (where you live)? It's a waste of money and life, no matter the crime.

But maybe this is offtopic.

Quote:

Magash said:
Well hey then lets let all the killers go free since it's not their fault. More bullshit. Nothing but a piss poor excuse for actions that people take. Environment may help to shape people but environment or society doesn't make a person pull a trigger or hit their kids. That is decision made by the person behind the trigger and nobody or nothing else.




I think murderers are mentally ill people. I think mentally ill people cannot make good decisions. They should be treated like mentally ill people.

Quote:

Magash said:
Maybe but everybody has full control over the actions they take because of it. There is never a time when murder is a valid action to take just cause society has dealt them a a bad hand.




Again, I think it's almost impossible to fathom what the conditions might be that cause a person to kill.
Again maybe they're mentally ill and their decision making is impaired?

Quote:

Magash said:
This comment is disgusting. A guy kills his wife and child cause he's pissed but it's societies fault. Another stupid excuse for people to blame the actions they take on something else and not take the responsibility for what they have done.
It's not societies responsibility to use a person to their full potential its up to the person to use themselves to their full potential.
Saying a person couldn't do it cause they can't afford the school they wanted to go to or something along those lines would make more sense but even that isn't a excuse.




No sane kills out of anger. Society needs to take care of that for everyones sake. 

Society cannot develop progressively at it's potential, if not all of it's members are participating to their potential. Help you help me. Make an investment, and get a return. That's what it's all about.

Socioeconomic factors are a huge influence in schooling and even future employment. This is pretty uniform across societies. Some people because of the conditions they live under, cannot go to school like they want. I've heard that story a few times.

The rest of your reply didn't seem very constructive so I didn't read it.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Any one into Spider Man? Well guess what... [Re: GreenHorns]
    #678385 - 07/17/13 06:26 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Magash said:
Now get your fucking ass in the real world will you. (Ok that last part was a joke now I'll get real). Yes what your saying is true but if somebody killed any of my kids one of which is a member here I wouldn't give a shit how long he was in jail. I wouldn't want him out period. I'm not saying it's right or not but I do know the way a parent thinks. Sure some would forgive and their strong people to be able to do that. Problem is 99% of people wouldn't. I would want that person in for every year of life my kid missed because of them (sure I don't know how long my kid would have lived but I'm gonna assume my kid would have live a full productive life and I want the guy that took it to pay) Simply put if you take a life you better be damned prepared to give yours up at the very least. Don't take what you can't give so to say.




And I can understand that. But I think you can also see how letting go and forgiving, can actually be better for both parties.

Quote:

Magash said:
Once again I say your reading is as bad as my writing cause my saying I don't feel sorry or their cause isn't hurting them.




My reading is pretty bad.

Quote:

Magash said:
Your absolutely right on this but what got them there in the first place. Don't commit the crime if you can't deal with the consequences and unfortunately that is one of them that we all know going into it. Just like I'm a grower and I don't hide it from anybody but I do know when people give me that "What do you do for a living" question and I say I'm a grower for the clubs I know some will say it's cool but just as many are gonna roll their eyes and give me that "he's promoting drugs use" look.




This is where I think we don't see eye to eye. First off, many of those people are jailed unfairly, so I really do question why they got there. But that's beside the point:

I don't think any sane human being, with equal opportunities and rights, commits crimes against others. Why would they? My only explanation is that you must be ill. If they're ill, they need help.

Quote:

Magash said:
Once again agreed that the right decision may be a hard one to make but that is still no excuse to kill or ruin the lives of others because of it. You kill a person and that person isn't the only one effected by that move. The entire family, friends, and so on. People pulling the trigger know this we can't assume that a bad life makes people stupid.




Two wrongs don't make a right either. You don't rectify a ruined life with another ruined life.

There is never a good excuse to kill period.

Quote:

Magash said: Sure I do but that is still no excuse. When a person kills a person or robs a store or whatever they have chosen to do they still know they are doing a crime or that they are doing the wrong thing. We can't assume that society makes people stupid and give them excuses because of it.
Just cause you can't afford college cause you may be of a certain race, gay or whatever doesn't give you the right to pull a gun and take somebody else's money. Surely you must agree on that.




Nothing ever gives you the right to do that. The fact is, those are some of the factors behind what cause violence and unrest in many societies. So whether it gives you the right or not, they are causal factors. So you either have to introduce a top down strategy and improve infrastructure, or go bottom up and fix victims.

Quote:

Magash said:
Only problem all attempts to rehabilitate people have failed in most cases. People are people no matter what got them to that point. There are lots of places that don't have what we have here that doesn't mean they need to go on a crime spree.




That's not true at all. Rehabilitation has helped many people. People have an incredible capacity for change and resilience.

Quote:

Magash said:
That is the problem what do we do with them? Right now jail is the only thing. Sure you can try and rehabilitate (holy shit that one I didn't need spell check for) them but the problem is that has already been proven moderately successful at best. You can't let 100 killers go free because you feel 2 of them may become productive citizens.




Moderately successful compared to what though? And I have to disagree, compassionate rehabilitation works more than it doesn't otherwise it wouldn't be used in places like Sweden or the Netherlands.

For example in the Netherlands, you're paid to go to prison. You might think that's insane, but when criminals leave with a little money in their pocket to get themselves up on their feet, they're less likely to commit a crime.

I think one issue is that many of us are still clinging to the old "lockem up and throw away the key" model - back in the day, that was all you could do if not execute them. We're obviously a little better off today, and we can do better.

Quote:

Magash said:
I'll have to disagree. I kind of studied the killer thing some years (I wanted to know what was going threw a serial killers mind when they do what they do) ago and most have been proven not to be mentally ill. Now am I saying this in all cases hell no. Those that have been proven mentally ill should be treated as such as you said but the majority of mental illness can't be cured. Your born with a mental condition so what exactly do you do with somebody who you know you can't stop them from wanting to kill cause they have no control over the problem themselves? Good question but we have to do what we have at hand now wether it's right or wrong. They sure can't be released to the public to do the same things over and over again. Put them in mental institutions? Most of them are worse then jail.




First of all, mental illnesses can also develop during the course of a persons life solely due to environmental factors and furthermore, it should be noted the exponential growth in mental illnesses across societies.

Second of all I can't see how you think murderers are totally sane people. Why would you harm someone unless it was for a survival advantage? Almost all human survival advantage comes from co-dependance. Any deviation from the tribal model in my view is a flaw in the mind of the deviant one.


Quote:

Magash said: Once again I can only partially agree. Mentally ill people can't control their actions but everybody else can when it comes to killing. No matter what our social situation is we all know killing is wrong if you don't then you fall into the mentally ill category.




Then all intentional murderers are mentally ill. If it was wrong to them they wouldn't do it.

Quote:

Magash said: Problem is none of this gives a person a right to take a life. Sure the help you help me thing sounds nice and but problem is it hasn't worked. Sounds nice but in todays society I don't think that it will ever be that way. Sounds bad but lets face it that is the way it is.

By the way I'm a Mexican living in California so don't tell me I don't know how people can hate you because of your race. I get to see it all the time. I hear all the time "you don't look Mexican" like it's a compliment and I usually don't say anything cause as bad as it is they actually ment it in a nice way. (sad as that sounds) I also refuse to let my race or anybody that hates me because of it stop me from doing what I want to do. I love hearing people say they would never smoke Mexican. Then I pull my pipe or bong and start hogging the weed when they complain I just say "you said you'd never smoke Mexican" :wink:




It hasn't worked because it has never been instituted. How can such a model work in a country like the United States when your economy is designed for a perpetual state of warfare? You say it hasn't worked, but I ask, what trials are you referring to?

Cool, but I'm not telling you how people can hate you because of your race, I'm telling you hate for your race or sexuality, it's hate all the same for individual differences.

Quote:

Magash said: Remember this a lot of our views may be influenced by where we live. Your in Europe (I love going to Amsterdam by the way) so maybe you can do the "help me help you" thing but I live in the states so we may be influenced by what we ourselves see. Example I took care of a guys house while he was in the hospital and during that time they pulled two murdered bodies out of the bushes next to his house. We have 50000 murders a year here so the help me help you thing won't work unless you happen to be giving away free bullets.

:shrug:




It's just primordial prevention, the help me help you thing. You help the ex-con get a job and a house and he stop committing crimes and contributes legitimately to the economy. I think it could work - but I think people in the U.S. might have a hard time knowing tax money and job preference is given to criminals.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Any one into Spider Man? Well guess what... [Re: Magash]
    #678414 - 07/17/13 11:51 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I get what your saying. I don't think you're getting what I'm saying.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
OfflineTomCollins


Registered: 10/06/09
Posts: 2,943
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Any one into Spider Man? Well guess what... [Re: Magash]
    #678991 - 07/23/13 05:17 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Busy week. Wanted to give you a reply.

Quote:

Magash said:
This is where your dead wrong. Not my word but the word of Dr. Scott A. Bonn, PhD world foremost expert on why people kill. Also according to  Professor David Wilson who is the foremost expert on both killers and serial killers in Europe. He's based in England. How exactly is a person who killed somebody put in jail unfairly? The comment makes no sense.




What I'm saying is that for many people, the conditions for which they were jailed were unfair - we can assume the same for some murder trials I think. An insane person who commits a murder and is jailed would be put in jail unfairly.

Quote:

Magash said:
...Neither of which is ever going to happen. I'm in the real world.




You keep repeating this, but the real world is only relative to where you are and what you choose to believe. Stating it over and over says absolutely nothing.

Quote:

Magash said:
Really I need to see this because every study out of Europe says that over 85% of your criminals recommit. The rehabilitation rate both here and in Europe has been major landslide of failure.




Quote:

Magash said:
Sure it's helped many people but in over 85% of the cases in Europe and 90% here it has failed. I'm not stating my opinion which is what your doing. The majority of the time it has failed. The one country world wide that has had the most success in rehabilitation is Norway and they are at 50%




You should provide a link to some sort of meta study then. Because a short google search provided counter evidence to this statement.

As far as I understand, there has been a dramatic increase in prisons since the 1970s and this has failed to rehabilitate criminals.

Quote:

Magash said:Non of the mental illness that cause people to kill have been proven to be caused by environmental factors.




A simple google search pulls up a counter article with references to studies. The DSM is constantly evolving, there is mislabeling and all humans fall within some spectrum of illness. I would go so far to say that mental illness is still poorly understood and treated. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/are-all-murderers-mentally-ill/67295/

I may be starting my opinion, but all you're doing is appealing to authority.

I can't argue with with information I've never looked at...

... but that does not validate your argument. There are many PhDs out there who say different things on the matter. So unless you are able to logically validate why you think your ideas are right, you probably don't know what your talking about.


--------------------
andyistic said:
Ok so let me bring you idiots up to speed.
The admins are tired of this shitfest being made the joke of the weed community on the Internet.

Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
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