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 Pandor
Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 503
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 Pandor's LED sickness *DELETED* 
#580900 - 08/25/11 05:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by PandorReason for deletion: plus plus to yo face
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Pandor]
#580905 - 08/25/11 05:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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4x8 foot space. 2 1000watts lights used. 4lbs total (Actually a little more)
You should get 2 lbs with those lights then.
Good luck with that. 
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Pandor]
#581011 - 08/25/11 10:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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LEDs are still a mystery to most growers. Although LEDgirl over at ICMAG has done shady shit she did run a fairly successful LED room, I think she used 1500 w of LEDs and got something like 1.5+gr/watt
One thing I remember was they call the 360w the equivalent of a 1000w but recommend it to be hung 6" above the canopy for an overall footprint of like 4x2 or 3x2' the claim being it will produce the same PAR watts or essentially flowering power as a 1kw HPS in a smaller area.
The more successful LED grows I've seen use short plants, LEDS hung near the canopy, and the footprint or floorspace used was smaller than you would use for the lights HPS equivalent.
That being said the huge problem I'd expect with CFLS and LEDs is low penetration power they shine and can achieve those insane yields when hung close to a very low profile canopy.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: maryanne3087]
#581032 - 08/25/11 11:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I pretty much agree with everything you said here. I do know this. I live in the area with the highest number of growers per capita then any place on earth. We have a average of 7 grow ops on every block here (which is gonna get that medical thing turned around if we don't stop abusing it but that is another issue) and I've seen at the very least 50 grow ops live and in person go to LED lights and not a single one is using them now.
I do believe the future is in LED lights but they are just not there yet.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Magash]
#581055 - 08/26/11 01:01 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I can only imagine what the future of LEDS and horticulture will be like when they perfect the 100-200w LEDS. Another great thing about LEDs is the level of control you have and the amount of tweaking you can do with the light spectrum.
Unfortunately and fortunately, I think the legalization of cannabis could be possible before LED technology is perfected/very useful (to the scale of HID) in which case you would be a fool not to grow in a greenhouse with or without supplemented lighting.
Also, just because growers in cali have moved on from LEDs to/back to HID doesn't mean LED are inferior. If I could afford the $10 000-15 000 to replace my HID lights with high end LEDs, improve my yields, and reduce heat/energy use I would be all for it. I've seen numerous people utilize 400-600w LED arrays to replace 1kw MH's for their veg rooms with added growth, reduced electricity, reduced heat. Flowering is harder because of the low profile you must maintain, it's not ideal for taller plants at all. They're not at all practical for someone who wants to be harvesting 20lbs every 2 months unless you've got A LOT of cash to spend on equipment.
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Pandor
Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 503
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Pandor]
#581150 - 08/26/11 10:07 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pandor said:
The 2 lights I have purchased are each comparable to a 600w HPS bulb.
I hope to pull from these 2 lights a yield that compares to, or exceeds one 1000w HPS.
I figured that if I got a pound from the 2 lights it will be comparable to what I would have gotten if I grew with one 1000w HPS. My friend that I used to grow with in Cali gets that each pull and that was my basis for that statement.
Jilly Bean is a very low yielding strain according to my friend who recently grew it out, so this will be yet another obstacle for me. But I enjoy a challenge.
Edited by Pandor (08/26/11 10:12 AM)
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Pandor]
#581172 - 08/26/11 12:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, just because growers in cali have moved on from LEDs to/back to HID doesn't mean LED are inferior.
The fact that the growers are in Cali had nothing to do with it. That was once again a cheap attempt at throwing a insult. Has to do with the fact that the majority of growers that use them switch back no matter where they are. See the difference between us is I like to see gardens live and in person not just on ICMAG and Youtube.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Magash]
#581194 - 08/26/11 01:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
Quote:
Also, just because growers in cali have moved on from LEDs to/back to HID doesn't mean LED are inferior.
The fact that the growers are in Cali had nothing to do with it. That was once again a cheap attempt at throwing a insult. Has to do with the fact that the majority of growers that use them switch back no matter where they are. See the difference between us is I like to see gardens live and in person not just on ICMAG and Youtube.
Actually there's no insult in me saying "Also, just because growers in cali have moved on from LEDs to/back to HID doesn't mean LED are inferior." especially when I go on to state pros and cons of their use. You were speaking about cali growers moving back to HID after trying out LEDs, I couldn't myself say that such a thread is popular amongst growers at large so I addressed cali growers as you did.
If you read the last two sentences in my last post I state they're very impractical for large grows where mass yield is the goal.
Who are you to say I don't enjoy seeing grows in person? Do you know me? Do you know what I like? I don't think so.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: maryanne3087]
#581205 - 08/26/11 02:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The reason I mention growers in Cali is that is where I am located. 2 There are more marijuana growers here then any place on the planet. 3 Most of the innovations in this field come from California like it or not and that's just a fact that I'm sure you'll argue for the sake of arguing. 4 Pandor was saying that the grow he is trying to model his grow after is in Cali.
The fact that most of what you post comes from books or websites pretty much sums up why I don't think that you've seen all that many LED grows.
Quote:
That being said the huge problem I'd expect with CFLS and LEDs is low penetration power they shine and can achieve those insane yields when hung close to a very low profile canopy.
That comment itself pretty much says that they are inferior. In order to achieve the yields your talking about means a larger number of plants or growing SCROG which is a good way to go but most won't do it cause it consumes more time. Here in the states that it's legal to grow in we have number limits on how many plants a person can grow and for the majority of people on this site that can mean a hell of a lot of trouble unless they are willing to take the chance of committing a felony.
I can grow large numbers cause I have a lot of people that signed the caretaker papers that allow me to grow their plants for them. Otherwise I would not have 64000watts of flowering going that would be insane. To even grow SOG in the states is kind of insane if your wanting large yields without those papers and even with them to be honest that is why I went to larger plants myself.
So in order for Pandor to get the yields he wants which is as he said would be the amount of smoke he could get from a 1000watt light. He'll need to grow at lest 64 plants that grow 14 grams each. That would be exactly what I put up in the pictures.
and I don't see that happening for the very reason you stated. The light will have problems with penetration for two reasons. The lights I've seen which includes the 3watters people hoot about can't penetrate to the lower parts of the plants or threw the large amount of foliage due to the fact that he will have so slam the plants close together. Here in the states that means crossing a line that can land you in jail for a few years.
Now to get the 1 pound he mentions later in the post he'll still have to grow a large number of plants that average 14 grams. 32 of them to be exact or even higher numbers with lower yield per plant. In the pic I have 64 plants per light in order to get 2lbs per light.
As you yourself stated "Flowering is harder because of the low profile you must maintain, it's not ideal for taller plants at all. " so in order to pull off what he wants he'll have to cross that line I was talking about earlier. 12 is the most a person is allowed to grow in some areas with 8 being the most common number of plants allowed. That means 12 plants that average 37 grams each if he's lucky enough to live in a area that allows that many or 8 plants that average 56 grams each. To put it simply I don't see that happening under the two lights he mentions having.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Magash]
#581210 - 08/26/11 03:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
Quote:
That being said the huge problem I'd expect with CFLS and LEDs is low penetration power they shine and can achieve those insane yields when hung close to a very low profile canopy.
That comment itself pretty much says that they are inferior. In order to achieve the yields your talking about means a larger number of plants or growing SCROG which is a good way to go but most won't do it cause it consumes more time. Here in the states that it's legal to grow in we have number limits on how many plants a person can grow and for the majority of people on this site that can mean a hell of a lot of trouble unless they are willing to take the chance of committing a felony.
Again, them being inferior or not is a matter of opinion. They each have pros and cons.
The penetration power and cost are the two major draw backs for LEDs vs HID.
HIDs have many draw backs such as: higher ceilings needed, more ventilation needed due to heat, higher energy consumption(LEDs would be easier to power during a power outage), less customizable light spectrum (arguably), reliability (not all LEDs will burn out at once, however your single bulb either works or doesn't), Lower heat/ventilation requirements make LEDs more stealthy, related to heat there's also lower evaporation of water in the room.
Quote:
The fact that most of what you post comes from books or websites pretty much sums up why I don't think that you've seen all that many LED grows.
I don't know if you could call that a fact. I can only speculate on what you mean by "What you post" as my horticulture related knowledge if so very little of that comes from websites and 95% of it comes from books validated through practice/observation. The other 5% is speculation which I am more than happy to point out I'm making an educated guess about whatever the topic is at hand. I haven't seen any large LED grows in person I have however seen CFL and LED arrays large enough to prove their value under certain circumstances or when their disadvantages are taken into consideration with set up.
There is in fact a local hydroshop that has two 4x4 or 5x5 tents one using a 1kw HPS the other using 4 x 90w UFO LED's which are by no means near the best on the market they grow peppers or tomatoes year round and although I haven't seen them harvest the same amount of fruit from the UFO's it would appear they are able to veg the plants up at the same speed.
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 RasJeph
Psycho Pete
Registered: 01/14/09
Posts: 11,657
Loc: Bumfuckt Egypt
Last seen: 1 year, 20 days
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: maryanne3087]
#581212 - 08/26/11 03:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The fact stands for me that if it were a good deal cheaper, I'd do it in a heart beat. Line up the whole cabinet with them and not even have to worry about fans really? Nice.
At equal or greater prices though? Pass.
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Of course it's happening inside your head.
Why should that mean it isn't real?
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Posts: 1,111
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Magash]
#581215 - 08/26/11 03:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Another thing, when you state a lot of growers aren't willing to veg for a SCRoG is that actually because of the time it takes or is that because of the electricity they would consume during that time. Of course some people who don't have the space, plant counts, or time would look at it differently.
Personally the electric efficiency is what would bother me, how I see it is vegging for 5 weeks is using the same amount of electricity you would use on a flowering period. However since LEDs are using 1/4 to 1/3 the energy that cost is modest and overall with vegging and flowering combined still lower than just flowering with HID with potentially higher gram/watt yield which is what in my opinion most growers are after efficiency. If time is an issue a lot of growers can have an area where they veg for 5 weeks, then move the plants into flowering for 8-10 weeks meanwhile more plants are vegging towards the end of flowering and so the cycle continues.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Posts: 1,111
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: RasJeph]
#581216 - 08/26/11 03:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RasJeph said:
The fact stands for me that if it were a good deal cheaper, I'd do it in a heart beat. Line up the whole cabinet with them and not even have to worry about fans really? Nice.
At equal or greater prices though? Pass.
Another thing to consider is lower energy costs and the life time of the LEDs vs HIDs. I don't know how accurate it is that LEDs last 8-10 years but I've heard of claims that 95% of your LEDs in your high end arrays will still be lit and bright after an 8-10 year period whereas you will need to replace your HID bulbs 5-10 times in that period of time.
People replace their HID's anywhere from every 9 months to 2 years.
So using 1/3 the energy over the period of 8-10 years would definitely pay for the LED cost over the HID and again I believe the LEDs might end up being cheaper when considering how often they must be replaced depending on how long they actually last.
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Pandor
Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 503
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: maryanne3087]
#581217 - 08/26/11 04:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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What it all comes down to is that there are many pros and cons to each type of light.
Personally, I am fascinated by the technology and I worked my ass of this summer and chose to use the money I made to try it. I am taking a risk but I am comfortable with my choice.
I think many people are afraid to try LEDs because there is a lot of negativity. Plus it's a challenge.
I am not a commercial grower. I do want to grow enough that I can smoke whenever I want, make tons of edibles, and sell some.
Only time will tell if I pull this off, but I am documenting it all here for everyone to see. There very few LED grow logs on growery, and none nearly as large as mine.
So here you go growery, enjoy the show.
Edited by Pandor (08/26/11 04:22 PM)
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RasJeph
Psycho Pete
Registered: 01/14/09
Posts: 11,657
Loc: Bumfuckt Egypt
Last seen: 1 year, 20 days
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Pandor]
#581226 - 08/26/11 04:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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If anyone wants to send me a 400w equivalent LED I'll volunteer to do a side by side test  
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Of course it's happening inside your head.
Why should that mean it isn't real?
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: maryanne3087]
#581231 - 08/26/11 06:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Another thing, when you state a lot of growers aren't willing to veg for a SCRoG is that actually because of the time it takes or is that because of the electricity they would consume during that time. Of course some people who don't have the space, plant counts, or time would look at it differently.
Sorry for the lag on the answer to the question but today is a chemo day.
I was talking about the time it takes.
Quote:
If time is an issue a lot of growers can have an area where they veg for 5 weeks, then move the plants into flowering for 8-10 weeks meanwhile more plants are vegging towards the end of flowering and so the cycle continues.
There is the problem. Now the plant counts are even higher do to the plants waiting in veg. Those would also count. Remember under federal law any amount grown is a felony where as under state law you have to have over 99 plants before they can really give you any time that would be considered long. Here is the problem. What they are doing now esp in Cali is if they want your ass busted. Some areas are pretty fucked up. Example, in San Francisco area they don't care what you do pretty much but go 30 miles south to San Mateo county and there they often call in the feds right away just to be sure you get a good deal of time. With the feds or in federal court you're not even allowed to bring up the fact that you are a medical grower since the federal government doesn't recognize it as medicine.
Google the words Canadian prison cell. Then google the words American prison cell and you'll see quite a difference.
Amercian version 
Canadian version 
I gotta lay down for a while. 
and we gotta stop hijacking this guys thread. 
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Magash]
#581247 - 08/26/11 06:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I see what you're saying, however legal restrains other people have are no concern to me. I care more about growing my plants properly and keeping my grow as waste free and effective as possible. Plant counts don't really bother me I usually have well over 100 plants.
If someone wants to figure out if a SCRoG with LED is more viable than a SoG with HID taking into consideration the plant counts, they would need to consider plants in veg+flower vs plants in flower and see what is going to get them more yield legally.
If you have say a 99 plant limit, flower time is 10 weeks, veg time is 5 weeks, you could probably fill up a 4x4 space with 6 plants rather easily (people fill up a 4x4 area with a single plant in 7-10 weeks with extreme training - I've done this myself)
You could have 66 plants in flower which would make for 11 x 4x4 spaces and 33 plants vegging, when half of the flowering plants are harvested 33 more plants go into vegging. Clones of course would be acquired off site. That is 176 sq ft of very full canopy at any given time(given the 5 week veg)
If you had a 99 plant limit growing in SoG, I assume you would aim for something like 1 plant a sq ft instead of 4 per sq ft to get a better yield/time vegging for 10-14days to fill out that space leaving you with 99 sq ft of flowering space but would have that lag time between crops.
So, how is it that SCRoG isn't a good idea for the legal grower? Feel free to purpose your own theoretical high yielding grow with a 99 plant limit.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: maryanne3087]
#581262 - 08/26/11 07:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I see what you're saying, however legal restrains other people have are no concern to me. I care more about growing my plants properly and keeping my grow as waste free and effective as possible. Plant counts don't really bother me I usually have well over 100 plants.
Yeah that's great most feel the same way. Since this is Pandor's thread we are gonna keep it about him from this point on and stop hijacking his thread if you want to continue this start a thread in the right forum.
Quote:
So, how is it that SCRoG isn't a good idea for the legal grower?
I'm not saying it isn't SCRoG is a great way to grow but lets face it it's the states and people want things faster (greed).
Now growing 99 plants is great and I often cross that line myself but the difference between my area and yours is that when you cross the 99 plant limit without the right paper work the state has no choice but to call in the feds. Then you get into mandatory minimum sentences. Anything over 99 plants is a mandatory 5 years with no chance for good time or early release so to cross that line is fairly stupid here.
Now this thread is going to go back on track or I start giving out vacations.
Pandor PM me if you want the posts that went off topic deleted or to just leave the thread the way it is.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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Pandor
Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 503
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Magash]
#581396 - 08/27/11 12:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I really don't care how much you guys discuss here. If it gets out of hand I can always start a new thread. An active thread is a good thread, IMO.
One of my first threads ever started on this site has about 2 pages of Maryanne and Magesh discussing differing points of view. I don't mind one bit. I learn a lot from you guys.
Not a big deal, but this is "her" thread, not "his".
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Pandor's LED sickness [Re: Pandor]
#581398 - 08/27/11 12:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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So what brand are those LEDs and what did they cost you?
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