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 CrayolaHalls
Dreams of Oceans
Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 588
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 Re: Are you really American?  [Re: jkell]
#525662 - 02/10/11 07:05 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Native American women were still being sterilized through the 1960s. And I would consider the continuous denial of treaty and cultural rights to be genocide.
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I am not a cannabis grower. I find the cannabis growers to be the most open to experimenting and sharing out of all of the different botany groups I enjoy. I frequently use the suggestions that I find to apply to own organic gardening and food production.
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 kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
Registered: 07/05/10
Posts: 981
Last seen: 12 years, 1 day
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: DungenessDank]
#525676 - 02/10/11 08:02 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DungenessDank said:
January 19 1911
right, and to ignore this is like claiming that Turkey is still operating one of the largest imperial empires known to man
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
Registered: 07/05/10
Posts: 981
Last seen: 12 years, 1 day
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: CrayolaHalls]
#525679 - 02/10/11 08:14 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
CrayolaHalls said:
Native American women were still being sterilized through the 1960s.
Actually, from my understanding, those sterilizations weren't a product of actual state policy (there was legislation intended to prevent the IHS from operating in such a manner). In fact, in the infamous report from Rosenfeld, that originally highlighted the issue, it was attributed to doctors operating independently, and on the assumption that NAs were too dumb to use other forms of birth control and that they were preventing these people from creating an even larger burden on the state (NA were not the only minority targeted in such a manner, either)
Quote:
CrayolaHalls said:And I would consider the continuous denial of treaty and cultural rights to be genocide
Genocide is the systematic destruction of a people, not mere repression
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Far Stox
Higher Education
Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 470
Loc: 
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: kyuzo]
#525689 - 02/10/11 08:44 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kyuzo said:
Quote:
I will contest that we ARE committing genocide, though. If you look at all of the shit the American government did to the Native Americans and how poorly they stand today I think there is certainly a case of ethnic cleansing there.
Committing? When was the last time you read about an Indian massacre?
I guess a more appropriate choice of wording would have been "we HAVE". Forced assimilation and the insanity of things like the Trail of Tears can attest to that. And I guarantee there were other atrocities that were committed that were simply left out of the history books of American school children. They already gloss over the significance of what was done to the Indians enough as it is.
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"When I awaken,
The first thing on my mind,
A little bit of cornflakes,
And a blunt that's all mine."-PUTS
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
Registered: 07/05/10
Posts: 981
Last seen: 12 years, 1 day
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: Far Stox]
#525693 - 02/10/11 08:53 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Far Stox said:
Quote:
kyuzo said:
Quote:
I will contest that we ARE committing genocide, though. If you look at all of the shit the American government did to the Native Americans and how poorly they stand today I think there is certainly a case of ethnic cleansing there.
Committing? When was the last time you read about an Indian massacre?
I guess a more appropriate choice of wording would have been "we HAVE". Forced assimilation and the insanity of things like the Trail of Tears can attest to that. And I guarantee there were other atrocities that were committed that were simply left out of the history books of American school children. They already gloss over the significance of what was done to the Indians enough as it is.
But as I pointed out above, this ignores that nations, societies, and people change.
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Far Stox
Higher Education
Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 470
Loc:
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: kyuzo]
#525696 - 02/10/11 09:11 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kyuzo said:
But as I pointed out above, this ignores that nations, societies, and people change.
So we've changed by moving on from killing them to merely bastardizing their images through sports teams and portraying them as the villains in nearly every Hollywood "Western" movie ever. Because at least we stopped killing them, right?
I realize bitching about what America did to the Native Americans in the past won't bring about any sort of reparations for them now, but it irks me to no end that our public schools (or at least mine) never once made the assertion that the government was committing genocide at some point. This (being the omission of the discussion of genocide by Americans) is the kind of shit I would expect from dictatorships, not the beacon of freedom and democracy across the world.
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"When I awaken,
The first thing on my mind,
A little bit of cornflakes,
And a blunt that's all mine."-PUTS
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BlueBerry_Swisher
Heart Slowed
Registered: 12/19/10
Posts: 3,303
Loc: Raw Headspace
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: Far Stox]
#525701 - 02/10/11 09:52 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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People, people! How about we talk about how much America has changed this way. George Washington grew marijuana on his plantation all the time! Do you see Obama buying grow lights and such? No...such a shame. In Jamestown, you had to grow pot in your yard, I'm pretty sure it was a law. 
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Let food be thy medicine
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kyuzo
Stranger Than Fiction
Registered: 07/05/10
Posts: 981
Last seen: 12 years, 1 day
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: Far Stox]
#525702 - 02/10/11 10:07 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Far Stox said:So we've changed by moving on from killing them to merely bastardizing their images through sports teams and portraying them as the villains in nearly every Hollywood "Western" movie ever. Because at least we stopped killing them, right?
1) you originally made the accusation that genocide was still on going. Then once I pointed out this was not true, you then resorted to citing past instances as if such policies can't change. Once again I pointed out how this was faulty.
In light of this, now bitching about mascots and movie villains strikes me as a red herring
2) Yes, this nation has done bad shit in the past, and so has every other nation. What is important is changing it for the better, and having such tools available that make this possible.
3) Unless the government is funding these sports teams or penning these films, I am unsure how such are a reflection of the government's policy. And short of the government infringing on someone's constitutional rights, there isn't much they can do (at least legally) to limit free expression
4) I'm not very sympathetic to such complaints, to begin with. And find them overly PC
5) Yes, when we decided to stop killing them, it was a drastic improvement over killing them. And am unsure how you could entertain anything less
Quote:
Far Stox said:I realize bitching about what America did to the Native Americans in the past won't bring about any sort of reparations for them now, but it irks me to no end that our public schools (or at least mine) never once made the assertion that the government was committing genocide at some point.
actually learned all about the trail of tears, the woman's suffrage movement, and slavery in numerous classes, during my school days
Quote:
Far Stox said: This (being the omission of the discussion of genocide by Americans) is the kind of shit I would expect from dictatorships, not the beacon of freedom and democracy across the world.
1) the beacon of freedom and democracy crap is exactly that: crap. We push our national interests like any other nation state. And though I often disagree with how this is done, I am unsure why my government shouldn't try to guarantee my safety and livelihood. After all, if they don't, who will?
2) you can find examples of this in any nation, dictatorship or not. As far as i am aware, the US, being that it's an open society, handles the issue much better than most
3)Can some of it be intentional distortion of the historical record? Sure, but I suspect it is largely caused by the fact that there is no way to make history completely objective
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Fazed
and dazed
Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 1,783
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: Shaggy420]
#525719 - 02/10/11 12:04 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
TrippyStoner420 said:
i dont really consider myself British, but im not too sure i know what being British even entails, i like fish and chips, and sunday roast dinners so that must make me a bit British  but i also think the royal family is a waste of space, the queen can suck my dick and i hate our govnerment. so that probably makes me not so british
judging by everyone living around me, the British culture predominantly revolves around television and booze, its the only things urban dwellers seem to be interested in. but all major cities in Britain are over populated urban wasteland, so it doesn't have much of a culture anymore, unless football and beer count.
but there are some awesome culturally rich places in the more rural locations, such as on the Cornish coast
 im rambling
Could'nt have said it better myself 
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Far Stox
Higher Education
Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 470
Loc:
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: kyuzo]
#525763 - 02/10/11 01:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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I feel like there are way too many understandings of this discussion that are being blurred by the limits of text.
Anyways, I'm grateful for the lengthy debate/argument/whatever you want to call it, but I'm tapping out of this one.
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"When I awaken,
The first thing on my mind,
A little bit of cornflakes,
And a blunt that's all mine."-PUTS
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CrayolaHalls
Dreams of Oceans
Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 588
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: kyuzo]
#525768 - 02/10/11 02:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kyuzo said:
Quote:
CrayolaHalls said:
Native American women were still being sterilized through the 1960s.
Actually, from my understanding, those sterilizations weren't a product of actual state policy (there was legislation intended to prevent the IHS from operating in such a manner). In fact, in the infamous report from Rosenfeld, that originally highlighted the issue, it was attributed to doctors operating independently, and on the assumption that NAs were too dumb to use other forms of birth control and that they were preventing these people from creating an even larger burden on the state (NA were not the only minority targeted in such a manner, either)
Quote:
CrayolaHalls said:And I would consider the continuous denial of treaty and cultural rights to be genocide
Genocide is the systematic destruction of a people, not mere repression
State, not federal, policies were still using sterilization as a punishment for minor crimes (like stealing) committed by NA women.
Cultural genocide is not repression. It is a way to wipe out people by destroying what they hold most important and forcing them to adopt new systems. It is the eradication of a way of life. Typically cultural genocide is considered synonymous with genocide, but I chose to differentiate since the obvious cultural destruction lasted much loner with the NA than the unofficial war on their nations.
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I am not a cannabis grower. I find the cannabis growers to be the most open to experimenting and sharing out of all of the different botany groups I enjoy. I frequently use the suggestions that I find to apply to own organic gardening and food production.
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DungenessDank
Lord of the Flies
Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 9,372
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Are you really American? [Re: CrayolaHalls]
#525825 - 02/10/11 03:24 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
CrayolaHalls said:
Native American women were still being sterilized through the 1960s. And I would consider the continuous denial of treaty and cultural rights to be genocide.
Bingo. The people who taught the first European-Americans how to live on this land are still being fucked to this day.
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FarBeyondDriven
Truthfully, I'm a bullshitter
Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 13,834
Loc: Greenbow, Alabama
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Quote:
A7X said:
People, people! How about we talk about how much America has changed this way. George Washington grew marijuana on his plantation all the time! Do you see Obama buying grow lights and such? No...such a shame. In Jamestown, you had to grow pot in your yard, I'm pretty sure it was a law.
I think that's a little off topic but whatever
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