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Quote: openmind said: In 2001, Portugal became the first European country to abolish all criminal penalties for personal drug possession. In addition, drug users were to be targeted with therapy rather than prison sentences. Research commissioned by the Cato Institute and led by Glenn Greenwald found that in the five years after the start of decriminalisation, illegal drug use by teenagers had declined, the rate of HIV infections among drug users had dropped, deaths related to heroin and similar drugs had been cut by more than half, and the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction had doubled
That might very well be true. And it's not like in super opposed to it. But I do think we need to have a.number of saftey nets, programs and things of that sort see up.
-------------------- niteowl said: See, that term pedo gets thrown around a lot.
Is a 16 year old guy having sex w/a 16 year old girl a pedophile?
If not, then how is a 30 year old considered a pedophile for doing the same thing?
I think y'all need to look up the definition for pedophile.
I think SB and Magash's arguments are more prepared than yours Fractal Ya'll have persuaded me. The more and more I think about it, no, drugs shouldn't be legalized, not all of them anyway. The crime rate would go up like a motherfucker with heads and junkies trying to get a fix for the legal drug, but doing illegal things to get it, and I'm sure people who didn't used to do it when it was illegal, would be doing it then. Think about this, you're in a bar one night, everybody's fucked up and somebody offers you a line of coke. The guy says nah man I'm good, the other guy says well it's legal now. Other guy says, ok well I guess I'll try it and blows a line right on the bar, just because it's legal. How many times do you think that would happen all across the country/world Fractal? Therefore making some new addicts.
Quote: FarBeyondDriven said: I think SB and Magash's arguments are more prepared than yours Fractal Ya'll have persuaded me. The more and more I think about it, no, drugs shouldn't be legalized, not all of them anyway. The crime rate would go up like a motherfucker with heads and junkies trying to get a fix for the legal drug, but doing illegal things to get it, and I'm sure people who didn't used to do it when it was illegal, would be doing it then. Think about this, you're in a bar one night, everybody's fucked up and somebody offers you a line of coke. The guy says nah man I'm good, the other guy says well it's legal now. Other guy says, ok well I guess I'll try it and blows a line right on the bar, just because it's legal. How many times do you think that would happen all across the country/world Fractal? Therefore making some new addicts.
You haven't heard his argument, just a statement of opinion. Just because there's a potential for addiction doesn't mean we should eliminate a fundamental right! People MUST take responsibility for their own actions and education. The same goes for their children. Why is it the goverrnment's responsibility to educate our youth about drugs? I wouldn't be so quick to form that kind of opinion FBD. As I have read the responses and seen the polling in this thread I have lost some hope. If WE can't agree on this issue then we will never get anyone else to. Here are a couple things i posted in the other thread.
Quote: FurrowedBrow said: He understands making heroin and coke illegal?! I hate people that stand up for pot but then say that they can sympathize with the illegality of hard drugs.
morale of that story -
dangerous freedom > peaceful slavery
I really do wonder how many pot advocates think like this. They are missing the point. This is a fucking human rights issue. Drug and pot advocates should be advocating human rights, not a particular drug they enjoy. That's part of the fucking problem right there!
And this one is for those who speak of the perils of addiction. It's addiction that's the problem, not the drug!
Quote: FurrowedBrow said:
Quote: iStoner said: Furrowed you speak truth, but ive seen peoples lives get fucked up so much because of hard drugs.
So? Like shrooms said. isn't that their own fault? Shouldn't they be held accountable for their actions? Is it the government's responsibility to educate us about drugs? I don't really think so. Why should I add my money to do something that parents should do themselves? All drugs should be available to the public and harm reduction should be the policy. We all know of the damage that addiction can cause. You aren't the only one who has dealt with it or know people that have. That's not an argument. I doubt that is really your argument but I just wanted to add that since you added the 'but' in there as if to provide a contradiction to my statement. But I have to ask...Do you fall into that category of not thinking all drugs should be legal? I'm going to throw up a poll in a new thread for shits.
You may envision a world where drugs are legal and people run around shooting themselves up on a park bench. Well i say that we have the addiction problems that we have because of prohibition AND our lack of a solid education about illicit drugs. Harm reduction is the policy we need here. A person should be able to shoot heroin in their eyeball if they want to, absent harm to others. And yes, that would include doing it in a secure, safe place, with a pure drug that has a dosage that is carefully measured. Most normal people in america would be harmed just by seeing someone shoot up. There would be regulations to this. However, this is all beside the point. We aren't debating what policy should be in place here, just whether they should be legal.
I think that to say one drug should be legal and another not, is incredibly hypocritical, regardless of the reasoning. Once a drug is synthesized it's property of all mankind, regardless of who holds the patent on it. That only entitles benefit from the work used to create it.
Also this crime rate going up argument is exactly what the anti drug forces argue. Legalize drugs and we'll have chaos!!!! It's fear mongering! Yeah that may be true in a society of fucking idiots who shouldn't be in the gene pool anyway. However, this is a principle issue to what it means to be free in the modern era.
Quote: Magash said: All about the freedom stuff is such a joke. Pick up any addict off the street and ask him just how free he feels.
Hey Inverted your out there somewhere. Just how free are you feeling right about now?
Laws do not make for a more responsible society, thats a fact. There will always be junkies whether it is legal or not, as their root issue has nothing to do with drugs.
Quote: I know this if it became legal to do any drug you like it should be legal to blow that persons brains out when you catch him breaking into your house to try and rip off shit so he can score his now legal drug.
You of all people should know the price of drugs are massively inflated due to their criminalization.
I will take dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery anyway.
Quote: It's funny, the same people who bitch about freedom are the same people that bitch about their tax dollars being used to clean up the mess.
Nah, I only bitch when my tax dollars are used to fund a war that is strictly for imperialist purposes. In the utilitarian sense you seem to have about cleaning up social problems, the amount the war in the middle east costs each year could more than cover all your countries social problems combined x10.
-------------------- King Koopa said: The amount of pot that Gask smokes is equivalent to a guy shooting heroin on weekends
To still believe and magash, I don't think legalizing drugs will cause more problems or increase in use, people will make their own choice on the matter either way, illegal or legal. If they want to use drugs they're gonna use em. Infact with the way things are now, the education on drugs and the abuse of them and the consequences is very poor. I've seen addicts and even been one myself, I shot heroin off and on for 3 years since I was 18, and only quit because I ran outa money. I made the choice to start, I am the one who walked up to a known junky and asked for it, I put that needle in my arm.
People have choices, and with good education, maybe even a first hand look on what addiction does to someones life those choices can be swayed to the better side of things.
On the flip side, I made the choice to quit, even though you're FUBAR all the time doesn't mean you don't see how its ruining you. When you get hooked on shit like H, crack, meth etc. thats when you're choices get limited. You either seek help or die.
Open and honest education is the first step for prevention, but if prevention fails, treatment is the next option. Sending people to jail don't do shit. You can still get drugs while you're in there and the mentality you have when you come out is worse than if you go in.
I'm not saying legalize them and sell them in your local pharmacy, but atleast decriminalize them and stress treatment for the addiction, and counseling to find out the underlying issues. Its a fucking disease people, and there has got to be a better way of dealing with it.
The problem with drugs is not their legality but the education that surrounds them. You are never going to end or curb drug abuse through legislation.
Also as far as people not doing drugs because they're illegal, again that comes down to education.
Do you really think if methamphetamine or crack cocaine were to be made legal tomorrow that everyone who isn't already curious in trying the drug would go out and buy it? I sure wouldn't and you're an ignorant person if you would.
Voluntary drug clinic admission is also more successful in preventing return visits then mandatory court ordered drug court.
Argument after argument, you can run through. The answer is the same each time. If your goal with drug policy is to reduce the harm of drugs to the individual and the society the best solution, in my mind, will be reached through education and rehabilitation. I wish I could argue this more, I'm about to leave the house but, I would be glad to debate this with anyone who things otherwise.
Ultimately it comes down to personally responsibility. Just because some people don't want to carry it, for themselves and their children, doesn't mean you should make drug use a crime. It is a public health issue.
Legalization would reduce price, put in place dosage standards and quality standards to prevent drugs from being cut, eliminate a profit margin that can not be made up by any other legal or illegal commodity and set in place voluntary rehabilitation and education made partly from drug taxes.
-------------------- kickin-two-hundo said: you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.
Everything should be legal IMO. The government puts warning labels on everything, so just label the drugs. When people misuse alcohol and die from it, they get blamed, not the people who made the alcohol. Sure, its easier to OD and die on other stuff, but, that is nobodies fault but the person who ODed. Now, I know thats harsh and sounds very cruel, but its what I think is right.
Who has the right to tell me what to put in my body and what not to? Anti-freeze is poison, and I'd die if I drank it. But its not against the law to drink it
-------------------- Of course it's happening inside your head.
Why should that mean it isn't real?
Yeah you guys do make some very valid and convincing points Like I said earlier, I really don't know. My first thought is no, but after a bit of thought i ddo believe I'd rather live in dangerous freedom rather then a peaceful slavery. And I think some of you hit the nail on the head when you said education is the key. And I'm leaning towards decriminalizing and education/rehabilitation as a good way to go. My opinions aren't set in tstone on this subject because I truly don't know what the best way to handle the situation is. I dont think though that we should jump into fill legalization.
-------------------- niteowl said: See, that term pedo gets thrown around a lot.
Is a 16 year old guy having sex w/a 16 year old girl a pedophile?
If not, then how is a 30 year old considered a pedophile for doing the same thing?
I think y'all need to look up the definition for pedophile.
An FB, I may have been a little quick agree with a yes or no on this, but my thing is this: We can put all the education and regulation and all that on it that we want, but in the midst of an addiction, how many people are gonna think of the education they have. None. And that's pretty much their own fault, sure. One thing is for sure, this is not a simple yes or no answer, I kind of agree with parts of both arguments to be honest. One thing I can say is that I would like to see how Portugal is doing 15 years from now. I'd like to see if the whole country turns into addicts or not. Maybe if they're doing well over there, we could model a new system after them. I've said I don't know, yes, and no in this thread Bottom line I guess is Yes and No. There's compelling arguments to both sides. I personally don't care if it happens or not to be honest.
Take the thrill of being illegal away from drugs, and how would young adults and kids respond? I don't think nearly as many people would knowingly commit to being a junkie as those who are addicts now. Instead of demonizing drugs and adding to the delusion of drug use being something bad asses do, paint a realistic image of people as addicts.
Not many educated people in their right minds would take the life of an addict. It's a disease that a persons irresponsibility brings on, and they and everyone they know have to deal with it. At the same time, admit that drugs can be used responsibly by some individuals, and teach people to know when they are becoming drug abusers, and give them a proper course of action to take. Don't make looking for help with drugs such a big taboo that people would rather be in denial than get the help they need.
But we have a long way to go in the ways of an attitude change in the good ol US of A
Quote: FarBeyondDriven said: We can put all the education and regulation and all that on it that we want, but in the midst of an addiction, how many people are gonna think of the education they have. None.
I'd like to point out that education is more of a preventative measure, not something for them to fall back on once they make compulsive, uninformed decisions to try new drugs.
However, education should provide the knowledge that addicts can receive help from people who are there to help them recover and get better, not judge them. A lot of the problems with addiction today stem from the fact that nearly all illicit drug use is stigmatized by the fact that they are addicts, and may therefore be less inclined to seek help due to the presumed consequences of revealing their drug use.
Education has the potential to solve everything. Ignorance causes nothing but problems.
-------------------- "When I awaken,
The first thing on my mind,
A little bit of cornflakes,
And a blunt that's all mine."-PUTS
Quote: still beLIEve said: Yeah you guys do make some very valid and convincing points Like I said earlier, I really don't know. My first thought is no, but after a bit of thought i ddo believe I'd rather live in dangerous freedom rather then a peaceful slavery. And I think some of you hit the nail on the head when you said education is the key. And I'm leaning towards decriminalizing and education/rehabilitation as a good way to go. My opinions aren't set in tstone on this subject because I truly don't know what the best way to handle the situation is. I dont think though that we should jump into fill legalization.
My argument against decriminalization lies in the criminal enterprise still existing, causing gang violence as well as exploitation of locals who could survive no other way.
Quote: FarBeyondDriven said: This is more than a yes or no question for sure.
An FB, I may have been a little quick agree with a yes or no on this, but my thing is this: We can put all the education and regulation and all that on it that we want, but in the midst of an addiction, how many people are gonna think of the education they have. None. And that's pretty much their own fault, sure. One thing is for sure, this is not a simple yes or no answer, I kind of agree with parts of both arguments to be honest. One thing I can say is that I would like to see how Portugal is doing 15 years from now. I'd like to see if the whole country turns into addicts or not. Maybe if they're doing well over there, we could model a new system after them. I've said I don't know, yes, and no in this thread Bottom line I guess is Yes and No. There's compelling arguments to both sides. I personally don't care if it happens or not to be honest.
Well since the Netherlands began to tolerate cannabis use hard drug use rates and cannabis use among teens dropped and they've had their policies since the 70's. I think the numbers for trying cannabis are something in the range of 35% in the US compared to 12-15% in the Netherlands on one of the data sets I've seen. I'm sure you can find the data and exact numbers somewhere.
-------------------- kickin-two-hundo said: you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.
Quote: FarBeyondDriven said: This is more than a yes or no question for sure.
An FB, I may have been a little quick agree with a yes or no on this, but my thing is this: We can put all the education and regulation and all that on it that we want, but in the midst of an addiction, how many people are gonna think of the education they have. None. And that's pretty much their own fault, sure. One thing is for sure, this is not a simple yes or no answer, I kind of agree with parts of both arguments to be honest. One thing I can say is that I would like to see how Portugal is doing 15 years from now. I'd like to see if the whole country turns into addicts or not. Maybe if they're doing well over there, we could model a new system after them. I've said I don't know, yes, and no in this thread Bottom line I guess is Yes and No. There's compelling arguments to both sides. I personally don't care if it happens or not to be honest.
I think it is a simple yes or no. Have a little faith in humanity though. It seems like you've made the assumption that the only reason people don't do hard drugs is because they are illegal. And that if they are legal everyone would try them. Granted there are those people that will try them just because they are legal, but why should we deny them that experience to try? Not everyone is going to be addicted trying coke once. There are plenty of people like us that know how addicting these harder drugs are but we chose not to involve ourselves with them. Like people are saying, when someone is in hell of addiction to heroin they are less likely to seek help under a prohibition policy than if it were legal and a nurturing and supportive environment can be supplied.
yes, it takes a change in perspective for everyone to understand that a world can exist where people operate in harmony with drugs openly in society. Like I said it's a human rights issue. They should be legal for everyone to use, absent harm to others. I don't think that this is as radical of an idea as people are making it out to be. And you ALL support legalization of cannabis. So i think about that and I think about talking about this kind of an idea with my coworkers or parents and wonder what they would say, or if they could be convinced. depressing.
there was a time in america when ALL drugs were legal, coke, opium, heroin, weed ect. the only thing the drug war did was imprison people and fuel the black market making the cartel gangs super rich and powerfull
-------------------- niteowl said: See, that term pedo gets thrown around a lot.
Is a 16 year old guy having sex w/a 16 year old girl a pedophile?
If not, then how is a 30 year old considered a pedophile for doing the same thing?
I think y'all need to look up the definition for pedophile.
Well, I hadn't made the assumption that the only reason everyone hadn't tried illegal dr00gz was because that they were illegal. I'm sure there are some people who wouldn't turn into junkies or crackheads just because they're smart enough not to, but some people would, and I think it would be more people than we have as crackheads or junkies now. And no, you're right, everyone wouldn't turn into an addict from one use, but it's usually not one use that does it now. It's usually a process. Once here, once there, that one time at a friend's party, then boom, know what I mean? I mean, I'd say that everyone in this thread is right to be honest. There's a lot to think about with this issue I think. The part about absent harm to others I think is impossible too. I think it was SB who made a good point about addiction hurting family and all that. That was a very good point. Wow, this thread could go on forever
-------------------- kickin-two-hundo said: you know what i did in english class? I came to class stoned out of my mind every day, i chugged vodka in the back of class, i put dead fish in the ceiling tiles. i put a gallon of old milk and orange juice in the file cabinet before winter vacation. i brought snakes in a tied up sweater and let them loose during class. i didnt go to school to learn, i went because i had to. i didnt care, and i didn't fucking listen to that stupid bitch. and i still don't fucking care. i tore the pages out of her books and burned them, and threw away all the books in the class, two books per day.
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Ya'll have persuaded me. The more and more I think about it, no, drugs shouldn't be legalized, not all of them anyway. The crime rate would go up like a motherfucker with heads and junkies trying to get a fix for the legal drug, but doing illegal things to get it, and I'm sure people who didn't used to do it when it was illegal, would be doing it then. Think about this, you're in a bar one night, everybody's fucked up and somebody offers you a line of coke. The guy says nah man I'm good, the other guy says well it's legal now. Other guy says, ok well I guess I'll try it and blows a line right on the bar, just because it's legal. How many times do you think that would happen all across the country/world Fractal? Therefore making some new addicts.
