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 jkell
Midnight toker
Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 512
Loc: Don' worry bout it
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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 Re: critique my noobness  [Re: Pandor]
#498949 - 11/17/10 07:58 PM (14 years, 2 days ago) |
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no such thing as a 4x4 light bro. They're usually refered to by their wattage and type of lamp, aka 23w CFL (compact fluorescent light), 400w High pressure sodium light or Metal hallide (Each produce a different spectrum),LED (I don't really know much about LED but they are measured in watts then usually compared to an HPS or MH light output).
You gotta ask yourself how much money you are willing to flush down the toilet should you not get a hravest. If you are willing to part ways with 2 grand (maybe more for 3 rooms), then by all means don't let anyone on here stop you from growing to your hearts content. All we're trying to do is give you a practice run with as little risk possible and still plenty of reward (knowledge). In the end it really all comes down to you. Personally I would start off with 2 hempy buckets under a 400 or 600 watt MH/HPS with switchable Ballast (which means you can use both bulbs on the same ballast. Look this up if you don't understand the benefit of it.) some nice ventilation, and a nutrient line you can start to get comfortable with. Make a grow log and you probably won't be able to fail. And remember to just always keep researching too.
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 Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: jkell]
#498983 - 11/17/10 11:30 PM (14 years, 2 days ago) |
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Ok, there is no such thing as a 4x4 light but this crap about 600s being able to do 4x4 is just that crap. Your gonna get 3x3 of good growth then the outer plants are gonna be scraggly. A 400 watt over a 4x8 Yeah ok I'll believe that when I see it and I don't care if it's some martin super reflector being moved by a light rail.
You want a average of 2500 lumens (yeah yeah I know lumens don't measure spectrum and usable light but if you got the right bulb then you don't have to worry about that it's a fucking grow bulb) I've done a ton of work on this and I personally don't care what kind of crap is written in whatever book. I have tested this with so many strains it's not funny.
Now as Hawk said co2 is good but constant air exchange is better. Also like he said there is a reason everyone of the larger seed companies have switched to constant air flow rather then a sealed environment with co2.
So why are people calling 1000watters 4x4 bulbs
600s 3x3
400s 2.5x2.5
250s 2x2
because when you get further then that away from the bulb you get below the 2500 lumens per sq foot ratio. Don't take my word for it grab a light meter and check yourself. I've done it about 25000 times so I'm fairly confident in the results.
Find a strain and figure out how it likes to grow. Some strains are better in SOG grows.
I bred this strain myself for sog grow. I wanted a plant with low branching.
This is done by BOG. This strain is branchy and wouldn't do as well in a sog cause of all the overlapping growth. You'll get little buds in the lower growth and nobody wants to waste time growing stuff to make hash out of.
Yeah yeah yeah you can train it bend it yadda yadda to make it work in a sog but do you really wanna worry about how to train the plant while you're still learning the basics? I have my doubts that you do. Once you have your grow system down (nutrients, light placement, airflow, security)
There is a lot to look into. Take for instance 600 watt lights. I've heard for years how they are more efficient then 1000s (and they are supposedly 7 to 10% better but I have yet to see it make any kind of difference in yield what so ever) so I switched every one of my grows to 600 watters ( ) and ended up hating them and going back to 1000s. I have ever yet to see a experienced grower have a easier time getting a gram per watt in a 3x3 foot area then a experienced grower with a 1000 gets in a 4x4. Put it this way. Look at pics of all the growrooms that the breeders use (and there are plenty of pics of their rooms outthere) and tell me which bulb they are using.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Magash]
#498989 - 11/18/10 01:53 AM (14 years, 2 days ago) |
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Breeders who grow larger plants would have reason to use 1000w bulbs as I explained earlier. 600w's are best for short plants. I've actually asked a couple of breeders why they don't use 600w's and they tell me that the 1000ws are easier to set up having to hang half as many reflectors, have half as many ballasts, run less ducting.
Heath Robinson on various forums is one person who I think of when thinking of very efficient grows using 600w bulbs and sometimes smaller bulbs. As far as documented grows and amazing results I don't think anyone online can touch Heath Robinson's yields. I'd frankly be shocked to find a grower who couldn't improve his yields by switching to 600w lights unless growing tall plants, or using a Colosseum or some sort of hydro system that distanced the plants too far from the bulb. All SoG growers I know that have tried both 600w and 1000w lights are happy/happier with the 600ws.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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So your gonna say that a grower can yeild more from a space using a 600 over a 1000. That's a load of crap or somebody is making shit up.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Posts: 1,111
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Magash]
#499269 - 11/18/10 07:25 PM (14 years, 1 day ago) |
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Watt per watt I believe so not light per light.
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jkell
Midnight toker
Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 512
Loc: Don' worry bout it
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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So your saying that if you were to graph watt/electrical usage and grams produced per plant on a graph, equilibrium would be reached with a 600watt lamp and anything under isn't to full potential and anything over is wasted energy? Interesting. I'd like to see someone do an experiment on this. Seems like some important grower info
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: jkell]
#499293 - 11/18/10 08:52 PM (14 years, 1 day ago) |
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I think there's a lot of things that factor into yield, I think even a side by side comparison of the two wouldn't be fair the 1000w's have more penetration power making them by far the better light for tall plants.
600w's are supposed to create 11% more lumens per watt over the 1000w's. More lumens per watt = more yield per watt. I haven't a meter to measure the output nor do I have a new 1000w lamp nor the desire to purchase one. Pico over at ICMAG has done testing with a light meter, identical reflectors, etc and has some reports of lumen per foot // total canopy level lumens produced. I'd like to see more information about specific brands of bulbs.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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They say this, they say that it's all second hand crap. I have a meter here and plenty of 600watt bulbs and plenty of 1000 watters and so on and the difference never adds up to the 11% they claim in fact it's closer to 7%. Now as far as what the bulb makers claim I have all that info right next to me and to be honest when you add up their own numbers it still doesn't come out to 11% or even 10%. The 10% they claim isn't enough to make any kind of noticeable difference on yield.
Now as far as them being better for small plants I have to argue on that one too. Not only does the 1000 have more penetrating power (which really doesn't come into play unless you want to count the plants on the edge of the garden and I do) but it also has a larger spread and since the 1000 is higher above the plants the hot spot in the middle of your grow area or directly under the light is way less pronounced.
Yes I do agree the 600s are more efficient but is the difference enough to make me jump on the bandwagon.....nope that train left the station years ago.
In other words just buy the bulb that fits your space. 
Last 600s are fairly popular in Holland and it has nothing to do with efficiency or ventilation it has to do with the fact that most houses in Holland have electrical systems that can't handle 1000watt bulbs and the loads they create.
It's elbongo time. 
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Posts: 1,111
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Magash]
#499336 - 11/19/10 02:50 AM (14 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said: I have a meter here and plenty of 600watt bulbs and plenty of 1000 watters and so on and the difference never adds up to the 11% they claim in fact it's closer to 7%.
What distance do you take measurements at?
What size of a footprint are you taking your measurements from?
Quote:
Magash said:
They say this, they say that it's all second hand crap. I have a meter here and plenty of 600watt bulbs and plenty of 1000 watters and so on and the difference never adds up to the 11% they claim in fact it's closer to 7%. Now as far as what the bulb makers claim I have all that info right next to me and to be honest when you add up their own numbers it still doesn't come out to 11% or even 10%. The 10% they claim isn't enough to make any kind of noticeable difference on yield.
Admitting 600ws are more efficient than 1000ws by producing more lumens per watt without defending why 1000ws are apparently superior is a fairly weak argument for the 1000ws.
Now as far as them being better for small plants I have to argue on that one too. Not only does the 1000 have more penetrating power (which really doesn't come into play unless you want to count the plants on the edge of the garden and I do)
By penetrating power I am referring to the drop in lumens vs distance from bulb the 1000ws maintaining a better amount of lumens further from the bulb = better for taller plants or lower budsites.
but it also has a larger spread and since the 1000 is higher above the plants the hot spot in the middle of your grow area or directly under the light is way less pronounced.
I'm aware that the canopy size for a 1000w is larger (typically 4x4' or 16 sq ft) vs a 3x3' for a 600w this means little to someone running multiple lights and seeking the best efficiency.
Reflectors have far more to do with hot spots than the bulbs themselves or the distance from the canopy. Although I don't know what the lumen distribution across my canopy is the canopy temperature is consistent. Hot spots are more common with mirrored / polished finishes on reflectors vs a pebbled/dented reflector.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Here's an example of some data that can be used to illustrate the efficiency of bulbs and the advantages of a 600w vs 1000w or vice versa. Data taken from Jorge Cervantes' Marijuana Horticulture Grower's Bible from the charts in the lighting chapter.
1000w HPS
1ft = 140 000 lumens or 140lumens per watt
2 ft = 35 000 lumens or 35 lumens per watt
3ft = 15 555 lumens or 15.555 lumens per watt
4 ft = 9999 lumens or 9.999 lumens per watt
600w HPS
1ft = 90 000 lumens or 150 lumens per watt
2 ft = 22,500 lumens or 37.5 lumens per watt
3 ft = 9999 lumens or 16.665 lumens per watt
4 ft = 6428 lumens or 10.7133 lumens per watt
At 4ft the 600w is just barely more efficient but the 1000w is delivering the much needed lumens to the lower canopy to develop those budsites if there are any. This and simplicity are the only advantages I recognize for the 1000w over 600w.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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There ya go quoting shit again and it's getting kind of old. Has George done the tests , nope he's just quoting the numbers the light makers advertise with. Some people are happy not doing the work and quoting crap but all it takes is a light meter, a few bulbs and the truth comes out. He also says that HPS are better for vegging so I guess I should get rid of all the MH I use to veg with?
Those numbers are just fantastic if you grow all your plants directly under the bulb. Myself I haven't found a way to do that so I need a light that produces at the edges of the garden also. Everyone of his numbers are directly under the bulb. How do I know, cause that is where the light makers take the readings and he's quoting those numbers.
So the guy with the 600 can be happy with his pound of bud from his space. I'll use the 1000 in the same space and be happy with the extra pound I get over him. 
and why are there no numbers on the 750s? They have been out for a few years
http://www.progressive-growth.com/proddetail.php?prod=750ge
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Posts: 1,111
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Magash]
#499345 - 11/19/10 05:19 AM (14 years, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
There ya go quoting shit again and it's getting kind of old.
I quoted a source that I had which is a lot more than mentioning you have bulbs, a light meter, and apparently know how to use it without any sort of data. I wouldn't be surprised if the measurements in Jorge's book were from the light makers for that particular chart. He did however construct a black room to test different wattage bulbs and various reflectors concluding similar results. Who knows though, maybe he didn't build a room he claimed he did?
I'd like more information on how you made your measurements it would be great to have some actual information contributed.
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Hendershot
Shapeshifter
Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 676
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: maryanne3087]
#499351 - 11/19/10 06:14 AM (14 years, 22 hours ago) |
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You are getting some great advice here. I would only add this: you said you aren't worried about odor inside the house, only outside. I am from the better safe than sorry camp, so...
I heard on the news about a local bust where the cops had chased a suspect from another crime and lost him in the area. They were knocking on doors when they smelled a strong odor from one of the houses they stopped at. That gave them probable cause to come in and Blam! he's in jail for over 100 plants( prolly clones but they count as a plant)
Just saying.. ya can't be too careful. Especially since you live in a semi ghetto hood- anything can happen.. Sounds like you're spending a good bit to get started, why not cover ALL the bases..
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"You're cool, you're cool, fuck you, I'm out.."
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Hendershot]
#499399 - 11/19/10 11:00 AM (14 years, 17 hours ago) |
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Bulbs of varying wattage's were used from 250 to 1000. Bulbs were hung a certain distance from the floor and measurments taken directly under the bulbs and every 6 inches in each direction from the bulb. (and yes the bulbs are the same models just different wattages. Bulbs are from Hortilux, Ultra Sun, Sun Master and Solar Max. Bulbs used were new and done with the owner of Growers Choice in Modesto Calif. Originally done so he could have a chart posted up next to the bulbs he sells) The bulbs used were given away right here on this site for free. (Thanks to the whole 2 people that gave me a good trade rating for a free bulb ya bunch of buttheads   )
Light meter is a CHY 332
I know about his black room I have video footage of him making it.
In fact now that you got me thinking about those videos I'm gonna make torrents out of them and I'll have links to them up in the lounge if ya want them. I'll have em up by tomorrow night.
Oh yeah, there was 1 company and only 1 that had numbers higher then what they advertise. The company was Ultra Sun. The thing about these bulbs is they are half the price of the other brands. Here is the thing we found funny about it. In every case the ratings on the Hortilux and other brands is higher then the Ultra Suns but in every case the Ultra Suns beat them.
and now it's morning ElBongo time. 
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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Pandor
Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 503
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Magash]
#499405 - 11/19/10 11:51 AM (14 years, 16 hours ago) |
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WoW
Thanks Magash and everyone.
I have so much more to learn. All of your input is helping me tremendously. Much appreciated.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Magash]
#499406 - 11/19/10 12:02 PM (14 years, 16 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
Bulbs of varying wattage's were used from 250 to 1000. Bulbs were hung a certain distance from the floor and measurments taken directly under the bulbs and every 6 inches in each direction from the bulb. (and yes the bulbs are the same models just different wattages. Bulbs are from Hortilux, Ultra Sun, Sun Master and Solar Max. Bulbs used were new and done with the owner of Growers Choice in Modesto Calif. Originally done so he could have a chart posted up next to the bulbs he sells) The bulbs used were given away right here on this site for free.
In fact now that you got me thinking about those videos I'm gonna make torrents out of them and I'll have links to them up in the lounge if ya want them. I'll have em up by tomorrow night.
Do you have the data you collected? What reflector was used?
I'm not even sure if the Ultra Sun bulbs are easy to find where I live. Here the SolarMax and Hortilux seem like the best available bulb.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: maryanne3087]
#499462 - 11/19/10 03:15 PM (14 years, 13 hours ago) |
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Yeah I'm trying to dig up that info now. I'm hoping it's not in my other computer that my daughter is always on at the other house. (She's a member here also goes by Mini-Maggie)
You know the ultra sun bulbs are pretty good I'm running them now and the plants seem to like em as much as the Hortilux bulbs (my personal favorite). I was gonna get some of their MH bulbs for my vegging plants but right now I'm using (he he he now this is gonna be funny) Hortilux 600watt MH bulbs for them and they seem happy so I don't want to change that till those bulbs run their course.
Oh yeah now that I think about it. You seem up on the products Maryanne3087 . You wouldn't happen to know why Advanced Nutrients stopped making VHO do ya and if there are any products out that do what it did?
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Magash]
#499482 - 11/19/10 07:00 PM (14 years, 9 hours ago) |
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I use Barricade from Advanced Nutrients and that's it. I don't really know much about VHO Very High Output other than it was a foliage spray. Basically all the respectable hydroponic stores around here stopped carrying Advanced Nutrients, I can't think of a place in town that has the full line of AN. I did a quick google search and found a label for VHO saying it's derived from Ammonium Nitrate and Potassium Nitrate. Worm Casting tea has done wonders in my garden as a foliage spray worm castings if the worm castings used are fresh there is a lot of benefit from the bacteria/fungi, trace minerals, plant growth regulars (have read studies indicating that PGR's present in plants naturally remain in worm castings in significant quantity - not positive of this claim). I haven't sprayed my garden with anything but Neem for a while now. Things I would spray are worm castings, neem, calcium nitrate, CAL-MAG, kelp, humic acids.
After a quick search I'm already skeptical of VHO being a superior foliage spray as potassium nitrates point of deliquescence is 93% RH while calcium nitrate is 53% RH, the POD is the RH at which the nutrients are going to be most soluble to the leaf. I think POD is basically the RH where the nutrient is soluble/becomes liquid and can penetrate into the leaf best it's been explained to me better than I can explain it to you I'm no chemistry wizard.
I'd try spraying some kelp, humic, worm casting tea with calcium nitrate and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it out preformed VHO. If you're on ICMAG check out spurr or PODRACER's posts out, they are both gurus on foliage feeding.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: maryanne3087]
#499566 - 11/20/10 12:16 AM (14 years, 4 hours ago) |
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Myself I pretty much don't like much from advanced nutrients other then the vho. I've been using it for years and nothing works like it. Well for speeding up vegitative growth there are a few things but for making the plants grow new shoots and speed up branching (to the point that no topping or bending is needed. The plants will grow new shoots just as fast as a plant that has been topped.
I like the worm castings and all that (particularly fond of a sea weed product called Alg-A-Mic. The plants seem to really love the stuff and there is a noticeable difference in veg growth within days) but I haven't found anything in 30 years under the lights. (Fucking holy shit this actually is my 30Th year under the lights where has the time gone) that even comes close to doing what the vho does.
My problem is I'm down to my last few gallons of the stuff and they went and discontinued it cause they didn't have a large enough sales base. (Well that is what the guy told me on the phone today. Most likely bullshit. He also said they had a problem with people constantly using to much of it. Which believe me you don't want to do)
and last Nirvana finally returned my e-male on the AK-48 (after sending the question at least 5 times) and they are claiming what Ed (a person I know very very well and dislike very very much) did in the big book of buds that it's Jock Horror x Ice. Weather it's just AK-47 x Purple Skunk or Jock x Ice all I can say it that it's one hell of a fast growing plant.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: critique my noobness [Re: Magash]
#499584 - 11/20/10 03:42 AM (14 years, 1 hour ago) |
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If it works that well, and works better than a concoction of nutrients with a more favorable POD it must have components other than the ammonium nitrate and potassium nitrate. Maybe it contains plant hormones/PGRS. What happens when you use too high of a PPM?
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