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 81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind 
Last seen: 8 months, 25 days
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 Max yield? 
#487083 - 10/11/10 10:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've started doing serious research into hydroponics, and I love the recirculating DWC concept.
I've got an acquaintance who tells me I need to do an ebb and flow grow in 4x4 trays, but I just don't see them getting yields of more than a pound or two tops.
Is there any way to get better yields from 4x4 ebb and flow? If so, what is it?
Also, which would you go with E&F or DWC and why?
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"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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 maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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What size light are you using? If you were using a 600w light I'd be amazed to see 2lbs regardless of what sort of hydroponics system you settled on. Is the strain(s) your running better suited for sea of green or bushes?
Ebb and Flo with tables is exceptional for a sea of green garden. R-DWC is exceptional for bushes. I've seen amazing yields with either system. Vertically hung lights(1000w) and 4 plants around each or so seems to be best for bushes often yielding 2lbs or more per 1kw light. Ebb and Flo tables should be packed densely to achieve best yields cutting out veg completely or vegging for only a few days. My sea of green has 49 plants in a 3x3' area using 5.2" pots.
Beyond the size of plants I think each system has it's pros and cons. I'm sure I'm overlooking some.
Ebb and flo tables:
Pros:
High yields with little veg time
Roots are less sensitive to reservoir temperatures
Shorter crop life = less chance of crop loss
Simple design
Plants are more mobile.
Cons:
High plant counts, lower return per plant
R-DWC:
Pros:
Huge bushes, in a relatively short time.
Lower plant counts
Cons:
Roots are submerged in nutrient solution, more sensitive to root rot / reservoir temps.
More complicated construction.
Plants are less mobile.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Also, why exactly do you believe Ebb and flo gets lower yields than R-DWC? If you grow a dense sea of green (36plants per 4x4') with Ebb and flo the only thing that will beat the yields per kilowatt hour/time is less practical hydroponics systems that are more complicated but deliver the air and nutrients to your roots more efficiently. Such as Ebb and Flo tables without medium and aeroponics.
You may get higher yields using vertical lighting and bushes over a Ebb and flow, but IMO that is increasing the light to the canopy which could be done more efficiently with NFT piping smaller plants around a light source.
Higher plant counts will always beat larger plants in efficiency.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Hey what's up Ren haven't seen ya around much.
Plant them in ebb and flow, dwc, soil, hang em up in the air and have magic leprechauns pee on the roots as long as you are supplying the nutrients they need in a manner which they can take them in and all the light they can use you are more limited by the genetics then anything when it comes to how much the plants put out.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
 Join us at the Growery!
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind
Last seen: 8 months, 25 days
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Re: Max yield? [Re: Magash]
#488354 - 10/16/10 12:41 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks Magash and everybody who answered...its so funny to be asking noobish questions, but I've NEVER done hydro, I never even considered it when I started growing, so this is like starting from scratch for me.
One more quick question, if I were trying to produce a commercial crop, what would be the most efficient way to do that in terms of time and space?
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"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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keepITLegalFellas
airo trials
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 27
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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in my state they dont permit outdoor grows. That is why I went with the DIY airoponic setup. Straight out of June high something magazine. Also found updated versions on here. Its my first time out of the dirt and I gotta admit Im impressed.
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I do not condone or condemn. This is my disclaimer, as all my post are complete fiction. Furthurmore any reason for lurking here is swim's and does not concern me.
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keepITLegalFellas
airo trials
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 27
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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I dont know anyone on here, im a long time lurker so I know this is gonna be moved, but how come my shroomery posts didnt count on growery? or support?
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I do not condone or condemn. This is my disclaimer, as all my post are complete fiction. Furthurmore any reason for lurking here is swim's and does not concern me.
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boomsaway
Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 95
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hey Ren, if you have the room id try to mimic wut this guy is doing
Heath's latest tree grow
on page 8 of that thread he gives a rundown of all his old grows and how to build his current R-DWC, its a very good thread if anyone has the time to read it.
to me, that is the way to get "max yield" haha
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DieselB
High Watt Closet
Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 1,156
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
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I'm with Magash 100% on this, its not about what method you're using. Its about having your particular setup dialed in. That's where I tend to see a lot of failure from honestly, people fail with one method and then blame the setup and try growing using a different method, and its futile. "I can't seem to keep balance on a bicycle, I think I'll try a motorcycle."
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If you ain't smokin' dro, you're smokin' reggie. 
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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Quote:
81renaissance said:
Thanks Magash and everybody who answered...its so funny to be asking noobish questions, but I've NEVER done hydro, I never even considered it when I started growing, so this is like starting from scratch for me.
One more quick question, if I were trying to produce a commercial crop, what would be the most efficient way to do that in terms of time and space?
Depends a lot on the strain. Now if it has a lot of branches you want to go with larger plants but if it's a low branching strain the best is SOG.
This strain would suck in sog
this would suck as larger plants
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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81renaissance
Coachella '13 KKOTY
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4,182
Loc: State of Mind
Last seen: 8 months, 25 days
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Re: Max yield? [Re: Magash]
#489422 - 10/19/10 09:49 AM (14 years, 28 days ago) |
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I wish I could just stick with my homemade soil growing method, but my buddy wants hydro for the dispensary if the MMJ law passes out here in AZ.
He's the one with the big money, so we gotta do it his way...even though my soil is/was dialed in, and he's asking me to use methods I know nothing about. 
Thanks for the responses guys.
--------------------
"So it goes."
-Kurt Vonnegut
BlueBerry_Swisher said:I want French fries. No, I want a penis French. Thank you. I'm so excited. I can not contain myself. Now I eat chocolate. It is so good. I'm trying to rub it all over myself. And then lick. Now I need a hot shower. The end.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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I'll give your friend $50000 if he can tell the difference between properly grown hydro and soil grown buds. 
and dispensaries don't give a shit if it's hydro or soil grown. They tell the customer what they want to hear anyway.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Re: Max yield? [Re: Magash]
#489483 - 10/19/10 03:17 PM (14 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Magash said:
I'll give your friend $50000 if he can tell the difference between properly grown hydro and soil grown buds.
and dispensaries don't give a shit if it's hydro or soil grown. They tell the customer what they want to hear anyway.
Ain't that the damn truth. I took some hydro Flo to a club around here, and they paid me a little less because it was hydro. Next day one of my friends comes over and tells me they were selling it for $22/g ( ) and labeled as soil. I confronted them and they told me that it looked too good to sell as hydro 
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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There were clubs in San Fran that completely changed the strain names of the buds I sold them.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Max yield? [Re: Magash]
#489540 - 10/19/10 06:57 PM (14 years, 27 days ago) |
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I'd like to take the pepsi challenge with hydro vs soil buds. I think that there's a clear difference with hydro vs soil grown buds (however I've been fooled numerous times) the distinction is less clear with organic hydro vs hydro buds. I personally have smoked my clones grown outdoors and smoked the same clones grown by friends indoors in coco and hydro organic or not and think that my samples come out on top.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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--------------------
All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Max yield? [Re: Magash]
#489610 - 10/19/10 09:51 PM (14 years, 27 days ago) |
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That's an interesting test. I see a couple of problems with such a test. The results I see are that the hydroponic buds are more marketable than the soil grown buds to the participants.
As 81renaissance pointed out this sort of test should really be done as a blind test. Without blind testing I think the only other way to do it properly would be to limit the participants to people who can be trusted to report without bias and have refined palates.
There's no mention of the sample size.
Again, humans are good for testing somethings marketability and are biased judges of actual quality. For example, I've had countless people rant and rave about their experiences at whatever given restaurant and when I go myself it's not anything to write home about. Granted there isn't a lot to critique between organic vs hydro grown buds and I think judgement and claims should be left to lab tests to measure and compare flavinoids, terpines, sugar levels as is done in commercial food crops. Many references of soil crops testing higher than hydro crops in sugar content can be found.
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Magash
The Feminizer
Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 6,634
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The sample plates were full. There were blind samples and in most cases the people chose the hydro buds after trying both even if they were more into organic buds which is far more marketable here then hydro (so you actually have that backward). Next if you have to have a lab tell the difference then that backs up what I'm saying. There is no noticeable difference between the two when grown properly.
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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?
Join us at the Growery!
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Harry_Ba11sach
cannoisseur
Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 11,753
Loc: Nepal
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Quote:
maryanne3087 said:
That's an interesting test. I see a couple of problems with such a test. The results I see are that the hydroponic buds are more marketable than the soil grown buds to the participants.
As 81renaissance pointed out this sort of test should really be done as a blind test. Without blind testing I think the only other way to do it properly would be to limit the participants to people who can be trusted to report without bias and have refined palates.
There's no mention of the sample size.
Again, humans are good for testing somethings marketability and are biased judges of actual quality. For example, I've had countless people rant and rave about their experiences at whatever given restaurant and when I go myself it's not anything to write home about. Granted there isn't a lot to critique between organic vs hydro grown buds and I think judgement and claims should be left to lab tests to measure and compare flavinoids, terpines, sugar levels as is done in commercial food crops. Many references of soil crops testing higher than hydro crops in sugar content can be found.
Go back and read it again, there was a blind test, as well as tests with the plates labeled backwards AND correctly. In almost every case people chose the hydro buds and then exclaimed about how delicious they were so they must have been grown organically.
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maryanne3087
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/10
Posts: 1,111
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Re: Max yield? [Re: Magash]
#489730 - 10/20/10 11:27 AM (14 years, 27 days ago) |
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I missed the no label plates.
I was saying that your hydro buds, the buds themselves not the label are more marketable than the soil grown buds.
I only suggested lab testing for the reason that human testing isn't without bias and isn't an accurate measure for anything.
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